A Few Questions That Have Probably Been Asked 100 Times

[ralph029]

Hey folks. I've been reading for a few days now and have some questions. As you all are probably aware, digging for answers can be pretty time consuming.
I am not new to casting and reloading. I have been doing both for better than 30 years for metallic pistol and rifle cartridges. BUT... I have never been one for shotguns, until recently. I've owned several and sold several over the years just because I never really found any love for the smoothbore. Well, that seems to have changed and I'm pretty gung ho on reloading and learning about this part of our sport. Naturally, casting goes hand in hand with reloading (maybe not initially but eventually). So here are some questions:

After reading through the loading data for round balls in the 3rd edition of the Lyman reloading manual:
There is only .690 round ball info listed. Is there a different source that lists all these different round ball sizes I keep reading about here?
I also noticed that unlike metallic reloading, there is no range on the powder amounts. Since just lower FPS does not equate to less recoil and I did not see muzzle velocity data, what are the best indicators for reduced or increased recoil?

Gates recommends .003" over bore diameter. Is this ball and wad measurement? Is it as simple as putting them together and measure with a micrometer?

Bore and swaging...
I've been casting a long time so I get sizing, but swaging seems to be a slightly different animal. I've looked around on Corbin's sight and if that is the only option then Track of the Wolf is going to get A LOT of business from me. Do you slug a shotgun barrel like you do a rifle or pistol barrel to determine sizing, or do you simply measure the muzzle? I am reloading for a Nova with no choke to start. Once sizing is determined can you simply cast round balls and match the proper size wads to get to that .003"?

One more question...
In some of the loads I read and in some of the posts here, I saw some loads required removing the pedals from the wads. If building a load without pedals, is it a good idea (or necessary) to run the round balls through a Rooster (or your choice of lube) lube bath to provide a little slickness?

Thanks for the help folks!

[longbow]

I'll try to answer a few of your questions anyway.

First as you are probably aware, slug reloading info is sparse compared to birdshot loads. The good news is that if you are not interested in high performance slug loads you can use equal weight slug to birdshot and used birdshot loads safely.

If you want max. velocity then you are going to have to use slug and/or buckshot (equal weight) load data.

I have collected as much slug load info as I could find over many years so at this point am not lacking too much but more is better.

My Lyman manual also lists 0.662" RB load data as well as 0.690" RB load data. The unfortunate thing with the Lyman manuals is that they tend to list only one or two recipes for each ball or slug so very limited info and components to choose from.

I use equal weight slug and replace with round ball as there is more slug load data available than round ball data. So a 0.662" RB in pure lead is exactly 1 oz. so use 1 oz. slug data. A 0.678" RB in WW is about 1 oz. so use 1 oz. slug load data.

For round balls in or on shotcups I recommend using at least one 1/8" nitro card wad under the ball because when 10,000 PSI kicks the wad in the butt it tries to wrap around the ball. It needs extra support to stop that. A small scoop of cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat on top of the nitro card wad and under the RB also helps.

I am a guy who has had no luck with 0.690" RB's. For the most part the wads I have been able to buy locally are too thick to use with petals and the few wads I have tried with petals thin enough to load 0.690" RB's in sheared petals at firing. Lyman lists load recipes for their Foster slug and I think 0.690" RB's using wads with petals cut off. I have not found that to work well for either. Plus you still need to use a nitro card wad under the RB or the wad tends to fail.

0.678" RB's fit many standard shotcups quite well where 0.662" RB's need a donut wad under them or patching to keep them centered.

0.735" RB's swage to fit at firing and can be quite accurate as in 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. They weigh about 1 3/8 oz. (~580 grs.) though so are fairly heavy. I used Precision Rifle's published load data for their 610 gr. solid slug for my 0.735" RB loads. While 0.735" is well over the 0.003" recommended fit there is little lead at the equator of a ball so they swage easily. A full bore solid slug is a different animal altogether.

Oddly I did not lube these bore diameter balls but did not get any leading at all shooting several hundred over time (15 to 50 a session). However, using a lubed felt or fiber wad under or tumbling the balls in LLA or whatever certainly won't hurt. I'd say any undersize RB like 0.690" shot naked won'[t cause leading but accuracy is likely to be minute of barn at 25 yards too! Bore diameter balls or ball in shotcups with good fit can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards.

That 0.003" fit to bore is a general rule of thumb more for safety I think and it applies to the tightest barrel restriction (choke if there is one). Ajay Madan (SuperBlazingSabots) has posted tons of info on slug/ball/wad to bore fit and he recommends a push through the bore test for smoothbore using about 10 lbs. force if memory serves. I found better results with a lighter slide fit using cloth patched 0.662" RB's in shotcups but that is likely load and gun dependent. Ajay's guidelines are a good place to start.

To get a good ball/wad/bore fit with an undersize ball like 0.662" or 0.678" you can patch with cloth or paper to get correct fit to bore with wads than need it. And yes, you can simply cast round balls and check wads to find an appropriate petal thickness for snug fit to bore if you have a variety of wads you can check. If fit is too tight petals tend to shear. Again, Ajay has posted lots of good info about this so do a search. All wads are not created equal!

So far Blue Dot has been my favourite powder for "high performance" slug/RB loads. My powder choices have been limited to Blue Dot, SR4756, Unique and Green Dot. Unique is a good choice for 1 oz. to maybe 1 1/4 oz. slugs and moderate to fairly high velocity loads. Depends on the performance level you are looking for. Birdshot load data with equal weigh slug is certainly adequate and much easier on the shoulder than high performance slug loads.

I hope that answers a few questions.

I'm sure others will chime in with advice as well.

Longbow

[Outpost75]

The WW2 British Home Guard Manual had detailed instructions for making improvised slug loads from birdshot rounds. Remembering that in UK ball or slug loads were not manufactured for civilian use. Buckshot loads were scarce and relegated to military and law enforcement, so the Home Guard was taught to make do.

The easiest method by far was simply to open the crimp, pour hot wax over the shot to fill up the case and when cooled the assembly works like a big Glaser Safety Slug. Most of the shot goes out the bore in one clump, whereas some of the pellets disperse randomly in a pattern around it. This waxed shot load was said to be effective to 40 yards or more from a choked bore. .

The alternate and preferred "improvised" slug method, if you don't happen to have a round ball or actual slug mold of the correct size, was to use a piece of dowel or broom handle. Whittle and sand it down until it is an easy sliding fit into the muzzle of the tightest choke of your common double gun. Mark with a pencil around its circumference at a depth EQUAL to but not exceeding the dowel diameter, so that you don't make the slug too heavy. You want a slug weight from 1 to 1-1/8oz, or 440-480 grains (30-31 grams) for a 12-ga. Use the rounded wooden mandrel to press into foundry sand to make sand molds. Melt whatever scrap lead water pipe or battery plates you have as well as any lead shot you have emptied out of the shells, then pour the molten lead into your sand molds to cast hemispherical, flatbased slugs.

After you have removed the cast slugs from the molds, file off any flashing at the base, then clean them well with oil and steel wool to remove any sand imbedded into the surface of the casting. For safety sake these oiled, cast slugs MUST be tried for fit in the gun muzzle and should fall entirely through the barrel of their own weight. If only a wee bit tight, such that they can be pushed into the muzzle with thumb pressure only, the oiled slugs can be "sized" by tapping through the choke with capped length of half-inch pipe and mallet until they fall out the breech. Oversized slugs which cannot be forced into the muzzle with thumb pressure only MUST be remelted and cast again, lest you burst the barrel!

Properly sized, oiled slugs can then be inserted back into the charged and wadded shell and cemented in place by dripping melted wax or tallow over it. It is unnecessary to recrimp the end of a paper shell, just trim it off with a knife. This also serves to identify improvised slugs from bird, duck or goose shot.

Waxed-shot loads were said to defeat a residential hardwood door at 25 yards, whereas solid lead cast slugs would shoot through both side doors of an automobile, or through the "boot," penetrating through the seats and dashboard, entering the engine compartment. They also deflate automobile "tyres" if hit.

Accuracy was supposedly adequate to hit a charging Hun silhouette target at 50 yards, firing 6-8" groups using both barrels, given a little practice. "A well managed shotgun wielded by a resolute Home Guardsman invokes terror in the Hun parachutist!"


The following is from a fellow very experienced in shooting round balls in smoothbore flintlock and converted percussion muskets in N-SSA competition. Events are timed, so a compromise must be made between speed and accuracy. He says that soft, pure lead is best, and that patching the ball is not necessary. A pure lead round ball about 0.005" less than bore size will be upset upon discharge of a black powder load to fill the bore.

"My load is 65grains 3f Old Eynsford with a .685 ball dipped in the same lube I use in my rifle musket. In my '42 Macon with .690 bore, this load will put every shot into a playing card at 25yd and hold 4 inches at 50, if the 'nut behind the butt' does his part.

"I've tried the other methods before stumbling onto this load, but it just plain works in my gun. If I had to guess what the most important factor is, that'd be the size of the ball relative to the bore. I have only .005 windage, others who use the file/dimple method, have a looser fit. I tried the file-dimple method and it wasn't satisfactory. Fouling got really hard and accuracy fell off rapidly.

"My smoothbore measures .690" at the muzzle. The ball is .685. No over powder wad. Powder is 65g 3f Old Eysnford. No over ball card. No issues with ball moving off the powder charge, especially after the first shot. My 1:4 olive oil-beeswax musket lube on the back of the ball keeps the fouling soft. I've quickly shot 16 shots in a row without wiping just to see what would happen. Same accuracy as the first shot, not much resistance to ramming. Ran out of ammo and gun was hot to hold at that point. That happens when you're cracking along at 4 shots a minute.

"Procedure to make my "Skirmish" ammo- put 65gr 3f Old E into a plastic cartridge tube. Seat ball halfway into mouth of tube (I go sprue down, but in testing I haven't found any difference in accuracy). Triple dip the exposed part of the ball into musket lube for a good coating on the exposed part of the ball which will be inserted into the muzzle after pouring in the powder.

"To load, pop the ball out of end of tube, dump the powder into the bore, thumb the greased ball into the muzzle (lubed side DOWN to powder), ram full down in one quick stroke, prime and shoot. I can repeat that process until I run out of ammo with no wiping between shots and the accuracy doesn't fall off one bit. Now with the lubed ball to the powder, I don't think I'd want to leave a round in there for very long since it may "kill" some of the powder, but for our speed competition, that's not an issue.

"For shooters not bound to primitive shooting rules, experiment with plastic 12-ga. shot cups which are a good fit in the bore. After inserting the cupped obturator into the muzzle, smear musket lube into the vents of the plastic shot cup, to keep the BP fouling soft, but without contaminating the powder. Use a 16- or 20-ga. card wad and a bit of Cream of Wheat inside the shotcup to give support to the ball, which should be a snug fit in the shotcup. You must experiment with diameter. A 16-ga. round ball generally fits inside a 12-ga. shotcup and safely goes through a full choke breechloader if loading for a modern gun with smokeless. Use common dove, quail, skeet or trap powder charge for a one-ounce shot load with the 16-ga. round ball.


Followup on loading cast lead round balls in 12-ga. from a buddy in Canada:

"I've done well with 0.735" RB's cast of pure lead. My smoothbore is large at 0.733" but I have shot the same load through a rifled gun with 0.727" groove with no problems.

"I've gotten best results using a -plastic gas seal then hard card wad column. I tried plastic wads with the petals cut off but the wad extruded around the ball causing gas seal failures. If you try plastic wads with the petals cut off I'd suggest putting at least one 12 g.a nitro card wad on top then the ball.

"With smaller balls (0.662" or 0.678") loaded into shotcups I get best results using a 16 or 20 ga. nitro card wad (or two) in the bottom of the shotcup then a small 9mm case scoop of Cream 'O Wheat on that then the ball.

"I bought several round ball moulds to experiment with different guns and loads:

- 0.735" used only for cylinder or rifled bores
- 0.715" for Browning BPS with slug & buck barrel I/C choke
- 0.662" because it will safely go through any 12-ga. choke, but is less accurate in any except a full choke.
- 0.678" standard 16-ga. ball is a good fit in most standard 12-ga. shotcups and safe in full choked barrels.

"I got excellent results with the 0.735" RB in cylinder bore and in a rifled gun but worried a bit that one might find its way into a full choked barrel at some point and burst it, so decided to try the 0.678" RB inserted into plastic shotcups. That gave as good groups as the 0.735" RB (4" consistent groups at 50 yards). The 0.678" RB and shot cup is easiest to load."

"I use a nitro card wad or two and a scoop of Cream 'O Wheat under the ball inside the shot cup to provide support and keep the bottom of the shotcup from trying to wrap around the ball. Before doing that accuracy was inconsistent and recovered wads tended to be cracked or distorted and often had blown gas seals."

" As for load data... once you get much over 1 oz. or the 525 gr. Lyman sabot slug that load data is sparse... I use Fiocchi 2 3/4" hulls, Winchester 209 primers, 40 grs. Blue Dot, for 1300 fps. I get a bit twitchy with solid full bore slugs so decided I'd rather use smaller balls in shotcups just in case one ever found itself in a full choked gun... just in case. I've found Blue Dot to be my favourite for slugs of 1 oz. At 1 oz. the Blue Dot charge needs to be high to generate enough pressure to burn well. For lighter loads a faster powder like Unique or Green Dot is better I think. There is lots of load data for 1 oz. slugs using both. The 0.678" RB's are about 1 oz. so lots and lots of 1 oz. slug load data can be used. If you don't want the heavy recoil, just use equivalent weight birdshot load data. "

[ralph029]

longbow & Outpost75, you guys are awesome! Thanks so much for the great info! I really appreciate it. This points me in the right direction.
Homework... Read SuperBlazingSabots. Spend a few $$$ at Track of the Wolf. Add Cream of Wheat to the shopping list.
If I'm understanding correctly, no additional lube needed if my wads keep the pedals. If I remove them, then why not. Lube can't hurt.
What about slugging the barrel though. Neither of you mentioned it. Just go ahead and measure the muzzle and work with that measurement?
If I understand correctly, I can really use an equivalent weight for slug and bird shot data to get my high/low powder charge range?

[Tazlaw]

Your 3rd edition Lyman manual, is it for shotshell reloading? Lyman has a 5th edition for shotgun reloading-I believe it’s the 5th. Anyway I’m sure you know this but thought I’d share just in case.

[ralph029]

Your 3rd edition Lyman manual, is it for shotshell reloading? Lyman has a 5th edition for shotgun reloading-I believe it’s the 5th. Anyway I’m sure you know this but thought I’d share just in case.

I was of the understanding that the 5th edition did not have round ball data. I found a used 3rd edition online cheap, so I ordered it and the 5th edition. Thanks for keeping me honest. I need that from time to time.

[centershot]

Ralph029, here's a pic from Super Blazing Sabot's thread that may answer your question.
Attachment 258946

I have shot combinations that were a tad tighter than the above but had no problems. My best load puts five .662" RB's into a jagged 2" hole @ 50 yards. IIRC, that load was .739" in diameter.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tershot+sabots

[ralph029]

Thanks centershot. I will start reading Super Blazing Sabot's stuff in the morning. I really need to read more because I just don't understand why you don't just measure the round ball with the wad and fit it that way? Slugging a barrel is super easy to determine the diameter. Maybe I'm crossing some invisible between smooth bore and metallic that I just don't know about yet. If that's so, I'm sure some one will take me out back and "teach" me the right way, hehehe.

[longbow]

Sorry, yeah forgot to mention the slugging thing. I use an inside mic for most smoothbore checks as it is "close enough". Another good option is to push a 0.735" RB through the bore then mic that so basically typical slugging. If you are using bore diameter lead this is a good idea.

If you are using RB/slug in shotcup with petals then Ajay's push through test is probably the best measure of fit to bore. I've tried mic'ing balls in shotcups but seldom seem to get a good reading. By actually pushing the ball/slug in shotcup through the bore you know whether it free falls, light push fit, hard push fit... actually doesn't fit.

And the fit should be checked at the choke if there is one. If so then the payload will be a loose fit to bore and correct fit at choke. You said you don't have a choke so no problem there.

The type and quality of the wad plays a part as well. I have had no success with 0.690" RB's in any shotcup I have tried (limited choices though) and even with shotcups that fit reasonably well the petals sheared. On the other hand 725 is loading 0.702" RB's into shotcups in a rifled gun no less and getting great results. I'd have to look back but I believe he said he is using Federal wads and from what I have read they are a tough plastic. So, maybe my 0.690" RB's would be successful using Federal wads where they have not been using other wads. I couldn't get any locally so used what was available... and that was when I could cross the border into the States to shop for reloading supplies ~ 911 put a stop to that! I can order in but locally there is little choices. Anyway, point being some things you have to try to see if they work.

Again, I'll suggest going through Ajay's posts on wad slugs/balls and bore fit thoroughly and follow his advice. That is a good starting point. If you are using 0.690" RB they weigh about 1 1/8 oz. so any 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load can be converted to slug round and you should be good using Lyman Foster load data and Lyman sabot slug load data if you don't have anything else. The RB is a bit heavier than the Lyman Foster slug (490 grs. for RB and about 475 grs. for Lyman Foster) and a bit lighter than the Lyman sabot slug (525 grs.) but those loads should work fine. Also the Hodgdon site has slug load data so use same data as for equal weight (or a bit lighter) RB.

Something else that should be mentioned is hulls. I generally use straight walled hulls. I was using Fiocchi hulls but am now using Federal field hulls simply because my Fiocchi's were old and the Federals are local and free. I plan on upgrading to Cheddite shortly since I found out the local trap club has bags of them. You can use compression formed/tapered hulls like Win AA but load data differs. Straight walled hulls are larger capacity and better for high performance slug loads if you want maximum oomph out of your slug loads. If not then it really doesn't matter as long as you load according to hull type.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Thanks again longbow. I appreciate the clarification. I sure have a lot of homework to do!

[centershot]

Thanks again longbow. I appreciate the clarification. I sure have a lot of homework to do!

Yes, it can be somewhat intimidating at first, trying to sort out everything in this section but a simple start could be something like this:

Select a 12 ga. 3 to 3-1/2 dram eq. trap load that utilizes components you already have.

Replace the birdshot with a 16 ga. hard card wad, about an eighth inch thick and add a round ball.

Crimp it shut, repeat 9 times and then go shoot them.

Pick up the wads on you way downrange to check you target. Wads tell a story, examine them for sheared petals, gas blow-by, mangled crush sections. As longbow mentioned above, Federal wads seem to be of more "robust" construction than some others I've tested, I particularly like the 12S3. The wads in the pic are from my sabot loads, some torn or missing petals but they group 2" @ 50 yds. Notice that the cruh sections and gas seals are nearly perfect!

Go shoot!

[ralph029]

Replace the birdshot with a 16 ga. hard card wad, about an eighth inch thick and add a round ball.

One question here... Do I need to account for the weight of the card (+ the weight of the RB)?

[centershot]

No, the weight of the card is of no consequence. The weight of your RB's will probably vary more than the card weighs. Now, if you're building a hard wad column that's something altogether different!

[ralph029]

Now, if you're building a hard wad column that's something altogether different!

Since I have no idea what you're talking about (at least yet), then I'll assume I'm not.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ralph: Just go read Ajays thread at the top of this forum. It contains just about everything there is to know about loading slugs.

His research and information is excellent.

Randy

[ralph029]

In case anyone is interested, after spending several days reading, I have come to the following decisions...

Working with shot shells is different enough from metallic reloading that I'm going to consider myself an intermediate beginner and approach the start of this from that perspective.

I trust the folks at Lyman and in over 30 years of reloading and casting, their data has never steered me wrong and has always been a good jump off point.

I am going to work with 1 00 buck load and 1 RB load. I have made decisions based on pressures and interchangeability of components to keep costs down. Since this whole conversation started about round balls I won't go into the 00 buck shot stuff. I think it's best though that I start with some published data from Lyman on loads and learn from there. I won't cast my own until I'm more familiar with how things work for my particular gun. I decided on using .662 RB's in a 12S4 wad using Unique powder. From what I've read here, .662 RB's work OK for some and not so good for others. I figure that this simple load will be a good start to evaluate what direction I want to go in using RB's. After some initial evaluation, I should be able to refine my questions to more specific needs and have a better understanding of what information is already out there.

Thanks everyone for the help and time you put into answering my initial questions to get this off the ground!

[centershot]

AHA!! We've hooked another one! Good luck Ralph, stay safe!

[longbow]

Unless there is a steep taper and/or a rounded cup bottom in the shotcups I think you will find 0.662" RB's a "rattle" fit inside the shotcup. You need to keep the ball centered to get decent accuracy. Also, a little bore friction is probably a good thing even with Unique just to get consistent burn.

My best results using 0.662" RB's was to cloth patch them into hulls with shotcups seated so much like patching for a muzzleloader. I used pre-cut patches, centered the patch on the hull mouth then pushed the RB down into the shotcup. Those were some of my best RB loads. You can test the shotcup/patch/ball to bore with a push through test. Adjust cloth thickness to get a firm push fit.

Also, a point I think that has been missed so far is that you may have to adjust the ball position in the shotcup using nitro card wads and/or COW so that the top of the ball is correct for crimp height and you should trim shotcup petals down a bit so they don't fold over as the crimp is opened. I wouldn't cut them to the equator of the ball, just cut if they are sticking up even with or past the RB. In my experience this is not a precision operation, just cut off a bit to get it out of the way.

Picking up wads to examine them after shooting will also tell you a lot. Recovered wads tell a story. If petals are sheared fit is likely too tight, if the shotcup bottom is deformed or cracked you don't have enough support under the ball, if the gas seal is damaged then again probably due to deformation because not enough support under the ball, if petals aren't folded back then likely too loose a fit to bore.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

With the .662 RB the hot tip is to put a 1/4 felt cushion wad under the ball. This helps to center the ball in the wad as it accelerates down the barrel.

Don't go overboard trying to push these too hard. Regular Trap loads with the ball and wad substituted for the shot work great. That's where I started and stayed with my RB loads. For my uses like shooting steel targets and plinking they are jsut fine and accuracy is adequate for those uses.

Randy

[ralph029]

Thanks longbow! I was thinking that I would use the CoW if needed. I'll be sure to collect as much from my tests as possible (including the wads). It took me a while this morning to find everything I needed so hopefully, I should be have my first rounds of testing in the next week or so.