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Thread: Gas piston less hold sensitive my butt!

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Gas piston less hold sensitive my butt!

    For the last couple weeks I keep thinking my optic POA keeps shifting. Every time I get a shift it’s only an inch. Either perfectly left, right, up, or down. I went out to try to eliminate some yard pests this morning and missing all today and hitting perfect yesterday. I noticed if I slide my hand up and down the stock the POA changes by about an inch left or right. If I keep it closely towards my trigger group or rest the stock across a board I’m pellet hole per pellet hole. At least I “think” I am finally getting my gun figured out. Is there any way to float or bed my action to eliminate hold sensitivity? I remember reading when I bought my gun and had it upgraded to a gas Nitro piston that big hype of it was to eliminate all the springer type hold sensitivities. Not true with my gun.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy rsterne's Avatar
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    My experience with gas rams is that they are harder to cock, have more recoil, a rougher shot cycle, and are harder on optics than a steel spring....

    Bob

  3. #3
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    3B: That doesn't sound like your problem. Check screws, these things will rattle apart. You should be able to tell if it is the gun or you by shooting off the bench.

    When off the bench in the field if you are shooting off an improvised rest like leaning up a against a tree or on top of a fence post keep your support hand under the gun in between the gun and the rest.

    Using Standard NRA Positions is also a good way to shoot and will enhance your other shooting as well.

    I shoot 99% of my shots offhand, and I practice in the shop off hand so I can get pretty close when shooting at a Varmint. When shooting in the field or my yard, I always look for an improvised rest or use my Trigger Sticks. I got the Bipod Style Trigger Sticks and should have gotten the Tripod version like Jim Shockey uses everywhere in the world. The bipod works OK for sitting but is kind of shaky standing. Tripod works everywhere.

    Anyway practice practice practice your offhand shooting, it will make all your other shooting better.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    It’s got to be me then. I loc tited all my screws and sprayed 3M 77 adhesive in the scope rings. Everything is still rock solid from day one when I mounted my new optic. I’ve probably put over 500 rounds through it in the last couple of weeks. All the screws on the gun and the action are still tight. I can notice and hear plastic stock flex when I grip my stock farther forward like it moves or binds back and forth with change of hand placement up and down my stock. I wish I had a hard wood stock that I could try to rule out flexing. The linkage that cocks the piston is loose at all times. I can move it back and forth with zero effort.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 03-20-2020 at 02:19 PM.

  5. #5
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    Yeah, but the barrel is the only thing that counts and it doesn't touch the stock does it? None of the Break Barrels I have seen touch the stock and I really don't see anyway that the cylinder in the stock could influence unless the barrel hinge is loose. I realize that the scope is mounted to the cylinder but if the hinge is tight that's not it. My HW guns all have .002-.003 stainless Shims on either side of the barrel and they are a real PITB to get in without bending them. They're is as close to zero clearance as you can get, and still be able to move it to cock the gun.

    Would you put up a picture of your gun? I have never seen one.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    My HW90 gas ram (new) is harder to shoot accurately, then my springers, but I am playing with the "artillery hold", it's a massive gun and everything is exaggerated in the cocking/firing cycle.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    Before claiming it is not less hold sensitive as your springer..... Are you comparing it to a springer with equal power?The gas piston may be less hold sensitive but it is NOT immune to differing holds.No, you will never eliminate the hold sensitivity of that type action.
    You mention one inch differences in pellet impact.... At what distance are you shooting? Have you factored in possibility of wind drift from one day to the next?
    Concentrate on holding exactly the same every shot.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’m shooting at approx 10 yards so there’s no wind drift. If I lean my hand against the left or right side of my door fram when shooting out of it will shift POA to the left or right. If I rest the gun across my forearm dead center.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master bosterr's Avatar
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    WRB... I made a 6X6 out of 2X6's and tried shooting in my basement at about 39 feet. The weather still won't cooperate to take my Hatsan outside to stretch its legs. Off a rickety card table I got many pellets stacked in one hole in OSB board. I did't get all my shots into that hole but it sure shows promise!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Randy, the barrel bore is tucked a couple inches inside the front of the stock.




    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 03-21-2020 at 03:18 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I’m shooting at approx 10 yards so there’s no wind drift. If I lean my hand against the left or right side of my door fram when shooting out of it will shift POA to the left or right. If I rest the gun across my forearm dead center.
    Tells me it is super sensitive to what hold you are using. Lots of times I will rest my hand flat against a door Jam and sit the gun on my outstretched thumb thus imparting no pressure one way or another to the gun. I recoils strait back like shooting off the block with artillery hold. Sorry, I couldn't hold the gun and take the picture, but you get the idea..

    Randy
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    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’ve tried that and it still goes left or right. I notice if I put my hand across the door and just rest the stock on top of the middle of my arm it hits dead center. I’ll have to play with it some more.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Could it be the scope is bad?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I thought it was the scope at first but when I rest my gun one way it shoots an inch one-way and when I rest it another way it’ll shoot an inch the other way. And then when I rest it a different way it shoots dead center. This is all without adjusting my scope. And when I rest in the certain positions I will shoot pellet hole within pellet hole and stack them in the exact same spot. So no, I do not believe it is the scopes fault which I have been blaming it off and on.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Could it be the hold? I learned a long time ago to almost allow my air rifle to "float" holding it lightly and off a hard surface. These are some other tips about POI shift https://www.pyramydair.com/article/S..._March_2008/46

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    It’s the hold. I read the pyramidAir air tips about a month ago but still trying to narrow down the issue...it has to be the hold. When free handing if the rear of my hand goes any farther forward than about and inch or two in front of the trigger guard the POA shifts. If the gun is resting across a flat surface it stays dead center as well.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 03-21-2020 at 11:03 PM.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I’m going to keep a better eye on it to see which way it shifts and moves. I went out and tried it again this morning and it was shooting an inch low at 10 yards...shocking. When I was shooting I tried an artillery type hold up and down before and a little bit and resting my hand in the door jam like you did Randy. I adjusted about 10 to 12 clicks up and have it pellet on pellet again. I’ve been rested it across my outdoor grill that I have a floormat over so it sits completely flat and can rest by itself like you see in the photo above. It shot an inch to the right. I then held it door jam style artillery hold and it hit pellets for pellet dead center. I’ll keep an eye on it and see if it shifts again and will have to stick to one style hold apparently. It’s basically like I’m free handing it but using the door jam for steadiness so I would assume free handing would be fine too the way I have it centered. You can see in the photos I took the front of the stock is flimsy or than heck and if I touch it above the barrel it will immediately flex in and touch. I’m wondering if I replaced it with a wood stock if it would help with a more consistent POA? I think that plastic stock is really flimsy and causing all the issues. By the time I buy a replacement hats in stock for it I might as well buy a different rifle and it won’t be a spring or spring piston again if I do. Very frustrating but I think am getting it figured out. We’ll see how many shots it takes before it shifts from dead center again. If it moves again I’m gonna start to blame the optic. I have three other brand new ones in a box I bought in the old Optima 3 x 9 scope I can put back on it if needed... But I’m guessing it’s still not the scope.




  18. #18
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I do have a pretty solid lock up when I cock it but I’m thinking my seal around the barrel looks just fine but I’m wondering if a new replacement one would help with accuracy?... Just in case there’s up and down movement on the barrel that I’m not aware of. Would a new seal cause more of a pressure between the action in the barrel for a better lock up? Not saying that’s the issue but I’m just curious if that would help with accuracy.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    Sounds as though you have it narrowed down to your hold.I shoot pretty much as you described with the rifle resting in my hand and the hand rested against a door or post.This way you can be pretty steady and still get a consistent hold shot to shot.All spring piston type guns are hold sensitive.... it's just the way they work.You already found which part of the stock it likes to be held for accuracy.Once you get good with the springer , you'll be better with a centerfire too.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I picked up a Ruger 1022 air rifle. There’s no hold sensitivity on that baby. After getting frustrated this morning I grabbed that little Plinker and I can hit dead center on everything as fast as I pull the trigger. I put a little red dot on it the day I got it. I just wish it was as powerful as a springer.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check