45acp 250 RNFP Data

[Snapping Twig]

Anyone have data for 45acp using cast 250 RNFP?

My lee mould casts WW @ 245g, so I figure 250g load data would be close enough.

I currently use a Lee 230g TC mould with 5.3g W231 to great effect, however I have this other mould and lots of boolits already cast, so why not try it?

I have W231 and Unique in stock.

[Snapping Twig]

Bueller... Bueller... anybody...

[felix]

ok, one round using 5.3 UNIQUE, NOT 231. If reject not at exact right angle to gun, lessen the powder until it does, or use stronger springs. ... felix

[Heavy lead]

ok, one round using 5.3 UNIQUE, NOT 231. If reject not at exact right angle to gun, lessen the powder until it does, or use stronger springs. ... felix

Felix, this isn't my thread, but please educate me. You are saying if the load doesn't eject to a 90 degree the gun lessen the powder charge, right? What if it ejects at 1 or 2 o'clock, or at 4 or 5 o'clock, help me understand. What does ejection forward of 90 degree or back of 90 degree mean?

[felix]

Typical factory guns are set up for 230 grainer "hard ball" rounds and those guns SHOULD be tuned by the "factory" to eject about 6 feet out at a right angle to the gun. Ejection is too hard when greater than 6 foot, but most especially when cases are thrown up and behind the shooter. Spring tension should be added in this situation, and possibly some other protection can be used on the gun so the frame/slide won't get battered to destruction. Spring tension should be lessened to make any forward ejection appear more to a right angle. Bullseye guns usually have 12 or less pound springs. Normal springs are 16 pounds each. Heavy duty springs start at 18 pounds and go up. Springs do get weaker over time, so always keep extra springs on hand. ... felix

[Heavy lead]

Thanks Felix, I have 1911's but am certainly not an expert and am actually a novice with them, this helps. I'm not one to hot rod a 1911, but this should help me gauge when a spring needs to be replaced or if a load is too hot.

[felix]

HM, never shoot hot loads in a KNOWN bullseye gun for obvious reasons. When shooting someone else's gun of unknown "quality", shoot target loads first to see what kind of gun that it is by observing the recoil pattern. The standard BE load is the 200 grainer by Lyman or H&G with 3.5 BullsEye powder. ... felix

[yondering]

I've used up to 6gr Unique with the Lee 250RF boolit, as well as the lyman 454424. 6gr is a warm load though, and should only be used in strong guns, like a 1911 or a CZ. Felix's recommendation for 5.3gr Unique is probably good for a more mild load.
I don't know about the ejection angle; all my auto's eject at slightly different angles, but mostly at about 4 o'clock. I don't know that I've ever owned a gun that ejected at exactly 90 degrees, or 3 o'clock, other than maybe some .22's.

[Snapping Twig]

Sounds good guys! That's what I'm looking for, not +P, just SAAMI rated loads for heavy boolits.

Try something new and all that, besides, my 1911 is full size alloy frame. I can shoot anything I want in it as long as it isn't +P.

That 18# spring sounds interesting.

[BD]

It's been a little while since I played with heavier boolits in the 1911s. But not so long since I played with warm loading the 230 gr BD acp. My technique for protecting the gun while working up these loads was to start with a new 18 lb wolff spring and a shock buff. A new spring should throw your brass about 6 ft. if it's going 20 feet, you're too warm. If the shock buff gets torn up in under 100 rounds, you need a heavier spring.

This is protecting your gun from excess momentum/frame battering. You need to stay within the load specs to protect your self from over pressure.

BD

[S.R.Custom]

I load the RCBS 255 gr. RNFP in the .45 ACP using 5.5 grs. of 231. It's a tad on the warm side, but I use the afore-mentioned shock buffers to eliminate slide-to-frame contact. That said, 5.0 grs of 231 under the same bullet feels very similar to a 'factory' recoil impulse; I use the 5.5 gr loading simply because it's more accurate for me.

The trajectory of spent casings --other than the distance tossed from the gun-- is almost entirely dependent upon extractor tension and fit, and ejector profile. Lock-up (and unlocking) and tolerancing in the related moving parts also play a role, but less so. Strictly speaking, I could care less where the empties land, or by what angle they took to get there, so long as they cleanly clear the port every time and get the hell out of the way of me and the weapon while I'm shooting...

[Snapping Twig]

5g W231 sounds good. 5.3g of Unique sounds good too.

I'm not going to be modifying my 1911 for this exercise, I have revolvers if I want to feel the magnum blast.

I want to see how they feed and print. After that, who knows? Perhaps I'll make a few hundred if they pan out and take them to a home made Box O Truth.

In the meantime, my go-to load with a Lee 230g TC is good.

Thanks for the good information.

[KYCaster]

Snapping Twig...do a search for heavy boolit 45 acp loads and you should turn up a couple of threads where this subject was discussed pretty extensively.

And...since nobody else has posted any negative comments, I guess I'll be the villain here...

Be aware that there a few pitfalls involved when loading heavy boolits in the 45 ACP. First and foremost is the higher pressures involved with heavier than normal boolits and reduced case capacity. While the loads you've been given are perfectly safe under ideal conditions, that can change drastically when conditions become less than ideal.

Poor crimp and/or poor case neck tension can allow the boolit to telescope deeper into the case when it hits the feed ramp. This reduces the case capacity by a significant ammount and can cause dangerous pressure.

The more abrupt ogive of the RNFP boolit compared to the traditional RN profile often requires that the RNFP be seated much deeper in the case than the RN which further reduces the available powder space so that a load worked up in a gun with a generous throat can translate to an overcharge in a gun with a tight throat.

The deep seated heavy boolit can protrude into the thicker part of the case and cause a bulge at the base of the boolit that can interfere with chambering. This could possibly lead to a situation that will allow the cartridge to chamber, but not have enough clearance for the brass to expand and release the boolit, leading to excess pressure.

There was a trend in IPSC competition for a few years toward heavy for caliber boolits and I have witnessed all of the problems described here in 45 ACP and in 40S&W. The lack of catastrophic failures and personal injuries reported with these loads is a testament to the strength and durability of John Browning's 1911.

I have fired many thousands of 260 gr. RNFP's in 45 ACP. I can't claim that I had no problems...there is a learning curve, but the load I settled on would be considered safe by most anyone's standards.

I'm not trying to discourage you from your project, I just want you to be aware of the problems you can encounter.

Have fun.
Jerry

[Crash_Corrigan]

I was shooting some recently with my Taurus 1911. The load was 4.5 Gr of Clays under a 200 GR LSWC lubed with carnuba red sized to .452. Excellent accuracy but excessive recoil, report and the brass was thrown up to 25 ' off to the right and rear. Nasty. No flattening of primers of any other signs however.

I then loaded some with 3.5 GR of Clays as the only difference. Great Loading! Empties cleared me and ended up in a neat pile 6 feet to the right and slightly to the rear. Low recoil and report with better accuracy.


This caused me to check my shooting and loading notes. I should have stopped at 4.3 gr for a 185 gr boolit not 4.5 for a heavier boolit. Bad Dan!

We cannot depend on our memory to recall those good loads from times past. We need to keep good notes and not exceed reputable loadings unless we are prepared to accept the consequences. I clearly had gone beyond maximum velocity on that 4.5 gre loading and now I have some rounds to pull down unless I want to use them in my Ruger BH convertible cylinder.

[S.R.Custom]

OK, I'll play since I don't have anything better to do this morning...

And...since nobody else has posted any negative comments, I guess I'll be the villain here...

Hey, gotta have villains.

... First and foremost is the higher pressures involved with heavier than normal boolits and reduced case capacity...

Not necessarily true. For a given weight, cast bullets occupy less volume than a "normal" bullet for the .45 ACP, as a "normal" bullet for the .45 is jacketed, and lead is denser (takes up less room) than copper. Remember, a bump up in weight from 230 gr. to 250 gr represents a change of only 8%.

While I'm on the topic of jacketed bullets, I should point out that all else being equal, jacketed bullets yield higher pressures, owing to their increased hardness. The worst offenders are JHPs, as not only are they harder, but the sizeable hollow cavity makes it necessary to seat more of the bullet's volume into the case.

Poor crimp and/or poor case neck tension can allow the boolit to telescope deeper into the case when it hits the feed ramp. This reduces the case capacity by a significant ammount and can cause dangerous pressure.

This is true of any bullet.

The more abrupt ogive of the RNFP boolit compared to the traditional RN profile often requires that the RNFP be seated much deeper in the case than the RN which further reduces the available powder space...

Not necessarily true. As you point out, a RNFP bullet has a more abrupt ogive, and when loaded to a length that makes the same contact on the feedramp as hardball, frequently has a greater proportion of its weight outside the case.

The deep seated heavy boolit can protrude into the thicker part of the case and cause a bulge at the base of the boolit that can interfere with chambering. This could possibly lead to a situation that will allow the cartridge to chamber, but not have enough clearance for the brass to expand and release the boolit, leading to excess pressure.

Um... no. Either the round will chamber, or it won't. If it chambers, there will be sufficient clearance. Now, we could get into a discussion about varying chamber dimensions (volumes), but that's a whole 'nuther discussion.

There was a trend in IPSC competition for a few years toward heavy for caliber boolits and I have witnessed all of the problems described here in 45 ACP and in 40S&W. The lack of catastrophic failures and personal injuries reported with these loads is a testament to the strength and durability of John Browning's 1911.

Or, the lack of catastrophic failures and personal injuries reported with these loads is testament to the fact that loading boolits a few grains over "standard" makes little or no difference. And whether or not you believe JMB's 1911 is as strong as some of the other popular designs out there (it's not), is a debate that could fill many threads of its own.

I have fired many thousands of 260 gr. RNFP's in 45 ACP. I can't claim that I had no problems...there is a learning curve...

That's true of just about any aspect of reloading...

What it all comes down to, of course, is one's own familiarity and understanding of the weapons, materials, and principles in play, and how much we trust that familiarity and understanding; each scenario is different, so there is no substitute for 'working' up a load. As for non-standard bullet weights and loadings, it's like a gentleman named Clark once said, "Each generation must learn the dark secrets of reloading for itself."


All that said, I find that the loading data that serves quite nicely when loading 250-260 gr boolits in the .45 ACP is the data that Sierra publishes for their 240 gr. JHC. Experience has shown me that it's pretty much interchangeable when used w/ the above mentioned cast-lead projectiles...

[35remington]

Now, not meaning to pile on, but.....

It really does matter whose RNFP we're talking about, and this applies to other heavy bullets of various shapes. Lee's 255 RF, for instance, is deeply seated, with an OAL in the rather short range when seated to clear a typical 1911 throat.

Data for an example? Sure.

6.5 Unique gets a 960 fps average in a five inch 625-3 using the Lee 255. Typically, the 1911(s) I own produce about 30-100 fps higher velocities than the revolver does, depending upon bullet weight.

Wanna shoot a 255 at over 1000 fps or better from your 1911? I sure don't.

Now, look at this.

6.8 Herco, 230 Lee 230-2R, 1.270" OAL, 900 f/s average. In the 1911. Five inch.

4.9 Herco, Lee 255 RF, 1.210 OAL, 710 fps, 1911
5.4 Herco, Lee 255 RF, 1.210 OAL, 804 fps, 1911

Herco is a tad slower burning than Unique, and to duplicate 230 ball momentum at 825 fps (about a 185-190 power factor, weight times velocity) the 255 needs to be travelling about 745 fps. So 800 fps is extra in power and likely pressures, while using a small weight of medium speed powder. Herco is also slower than 231, so give that powder's charge weight some serious thought before loading up.

Higher pressures with reduced case volume (and with some 255's very noticeably decreased case volume) are a very real possibility with stubby cases and deeply seated bullets. A little increase in seating depth with a heavy bullet, or a powder increase that would result in less velocity increase with a light bullet will generate a greater velocity increase with a heavy bullet, as a percentage. Not to be ignored.

Make an informed choice by deliberately starting low, getting out the chronograph, and increasing the charge for a non battering recoil impulse to the 1911 for regular use, if use of heavier bullets is contemplated.

Such practice will answer any and all questions about the safety of such practices - but, like KyCaster says, you'd better be also darn sure your case tension is tight AND the feeding path does NOT shorten the rounds as they're feeding. With oddball flat, blunt, "snaggy" bullets, this is a real possibility in the 1911, especially considering the great variety in magazine feeding characteristics present.

If your loads are Ka-Chunking (likely as many 255's when loaded produce a shorter, nonstandard overall length), remove rounds after the gun cycles and check overall length to be sure the rounds aren't shortening. Don't assume all cases hold the bullets with equal tension because some won't, nor will some die/case/bullet combinations.

Staying away from the faster powders would be a good idea.

And, the Lee 252 SWC, for another example, also takes up a great amount of case volume when loaded to a length that will chamber. It's not just the RNFP's.

Beware.

Also, make sure that the seating stem fits the bullet profile, as "crookeder" seating will result in the case bulges KYCaster mentioned even if the case wall thickness doesn't cause problems (you hope), and will prevent chambering. If you have to use something like a Lee Factory Crimp Die (arguable in its applicability) to squeeze the rounds down enough that they'll chamber, you've likely just reduced case tension, and made a step toward a less safe load by increasing the chance of telescoping the bullet in the case.

The heavier the bullet, and the deeper the seating, the less margin you have.

[KYCaster]

Supermag said:

OK, I'll play since I don't have anything better to do this morning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KYCaster View Post
And...since nobody else has posted any negative comments, I guess I'll be the villain here...

Hey, gotta have villains.

... First and foremost is the higher pressures involved with heavier than normal boolits and reduced case capacity...

Not necessarily true. For a given weight, cast bullets occupy less volume than a "normal" bullet for the .45 ACP, as a "normal" bullet for the .45 is jacketed, and lead is denser (takes up less room) than copper. Remember, a bump up in weight from 230 gr. to 250 gr represents a change of only 8%.

While I'm on the topic of jacketed bullets, I should point out that all else being equal, jacketed bullets yield higher pressures, owing to their increased hardness. The worst offenders are JHPs, as not only are they harder, but the sizeable hollow cavity makes it necessary to seat more of the bullet's volume into the case.

Poor crimp and/or poor case neck tension can allow the boolit to telescope deeper into the case when it hits the feed ramp. This reduces the case capacity by a significant ammount and can cause dangerous pressure.

This is true of any bullet.

The more abrupt ogive of the RNFP boolit compared to the traditional RN profile often requires that the RNFP be seated much deeper in the case than the RN which further reduces the available powder space...

Not necessarily true. As you point out, a RNFP bullet has a more abrupt ogive, and when loaded to a length that makes the same contact on the feedramp as hardball, frequently has a greater proportion of its weight outside the case.

The deep seated heavy boolit can protrude into the thicker part of the case and cause a bulge at the base of the boolit that can interfere with chambering. This could possibly lead to a situation that will allow the cartridge to chamber, but not have enough clearance for the brass to expand and release the boolit, leading to excess pressure.

Um... no. Either the round will chamber, or it won't. If it chambers, there will be sufficient clearance. Now, we could get into a discussion about varying chamber dimensions (volumes), but that's a whole 'nuther discussion.

There was a trend in IPSC competition for a few years toward heavy for caliber boolits and I have witnessed all of the problems described here in 45 ACP and in 40S&W. The lack of catastrophic failures and personal injuries reported with these loads is a testament to the strength and durability of John Browning's 1911.

Or, the lack of catastrophic failures and personal injuries reported with these loads is testament to the fact that loading boolits a few grains over "standard" makes little or no difference. And whether or not you believe JMB's 1911 is as strong as some of the other popular designs out there (it's not), is a debate that could fill many threads of its own.

I have fired many thousands of 260 gr. RNFP's in 45 ACP. I can't claim that I had no problems...there is a learning curve...

That's true of just about any aspect of reloading...
What it all comes down to, of course, is one's own familiarity and understanding of the weapons, materials, and principles in play, and how much we trust that familiarity and understanding; each scenario is different, so there is no substitute for 'working' up a load. As for non-standard bullet weights and loadings, it's like a gentleman named Clark once said, "Each generation must learn the dark secrets of reloading for itself."


All that said, I find that the loading data that serves quite nicely when loading 250-260 gr boolits in the .45 ACP is the data that Sierra publishes for their 240 gr. JHC. Experience has shown me that it's pretty much interchangeable when used w/ the above mentioned cast-lead projectiles... " end quote........



OK, Supermag, I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I especially agree with your last two paragraphs.


The problem I saw with the answers here is that they seem to be based on the assumption that the person asking the question has a basic " familiarity and understanding of the weapons, materials, and principles in play". While that may very well be true, I don't think either of us can know for sure based on the available information. That's why I chose to tell the rest of the story.

You started some of your answers with "Not necessarily true...", well...OK...but given the right circumstances, they can very well BE true, and I have seen some serious problems caused by all the factors I listed.

I think it would be appropriate when quoting specific load data, to include some information about the source, like..."This is from the Sierra book" (Speer and Hodgdon also have data for 260gr. bullets), or even..."I just pulled this load out of the air and it works great, but don't come cryin' to me when yer gun blows up".

35 Remington makes some good points about appropriate powders for this application, but I really don't want to get into that...even the villain has to draw the line somewhere.

Thanks for listening.
Jerry

[jhalcott]

Are we there yet??

[S.R.Custom]

OK, Supermag, I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I especially agree with your last two paragraphs...

The problem I saw with the answers here is that they seem to be based on the assumption that the person asking the question has a basic " familiarity and understanding of the weapons, materials, and principles in play"...

Yup. When a guy asks a question about loading procedure or data, I assume he otherwise knows what he's talking about. (Much the same way when I see someone in the woods when I'm out hunting, I don't automatically assume he's lost.) It's his responsibility to have a full enough understanding of things before putting bullet to powder, and its my fervent hope that any handloader would understand that by the time he finds his way here...

I'm not trying to be difficult --which is why I'm re-wording this happy hour induced response from last night-- and nothing personal, but I grow so weary from reading all the warnings included as part of the advice offered on gun forums in general. I suppose it's a negative backlash on my part from having to constantly deal with the stupidity of the modern nanny state. (I mean really, how many warning labels do we need on an extension cord?)

The pic below is an extension cord I bought to hang Christmas decorations with. You can see why I'm so cranky. Anyway, I apologise for being such an ass last night. I'll try not to do it again.

[Snapping Twig]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I've been reloading and casting since 1983 for both rifle and pistol. Shotgun too.

Heavy boolits don't need to go super fast to do the work, so I can see a reduced charge and a heavier boolit having a place at the table.

Gotta try new things every now and then.