AR project legal question?

[Dapaki]

Thank you. The machine shop question was one of my primary concern.

I have done enough research that I understand that BATF will accept a 10" barrel with a 6" flash hider or suppressor PINNED AND WELDED to the barrel is accepted as a 16" barrel.

I am still a little confused about the subject of swapping uppers and lowers. If I build a lower from a stripped or 80% lower receiver what uppers can I use with it? There will be no documentation of it being a rifle, SBR or pistol.

If I build a lower with no stock is it a rifle or a pistol? If I install a stock and decide that I don't like it and take it off, have I committed a crime?

Thanks Everyone for your input.

An 80% is neither pistol or rifle, see I told you it was confusing.

A stripped lower is declared as a pistol or rifle when purchased and its documented then to.

[kerplode]

Yeah, it appears that suppressors are prohibited in Illinois and SBRs are restricted.

720 ILCS 5/24-1
720 ILCS 5/24-2

[skrapyard628]

I don't know and I'm just asking - but will those combinations violate Illinois law ?

Federal law doesn't trump state law - either sovereignty (and sometimes both) can prosecute you.

You must be in compliance with both federal & state law.

The OP may be in a different state.

That was me thats stuck in IL for the time being. Sorry if there was any thread drift with that.

[Mr_Sheesh]

If you want the OPTION of a pistol, don't buy a used or new RIFLE lower (some lowers are put on paperwork as Rifle lowers; You want one specified as a Pistol lower, or an Other lower.

I'm no expert but pretty darn sure that, if someone sells you a used rifle lower and you build it up as a pistol, that is one very EFFECTIVE way to get in bad trouble with the BATFE and so on. Even if the person selling you the lower claims it's a pistol lower, you could technically get in trouble. (If the 4473 called it an OTHER that could save your bacon, but risky...)

If you build a Pistol or Other lower up as a pistol, then you always have the option of changing it back to a pistol. Barrel and stock/grip off first, fairly sure I'd put the items I wasn't planning to install next AWAY and then install the configuration I did want.

Another way to get in trouble would be to have a stock on your weapon, and install a short barrel on it, without removing the stock FIRST.

If you have an SBR stamp IN HAND, that allows pistol barrels with a stock, of course.

[thraxx]

One rifle lower and one pistol lower will allow careful swapping while making sure that I don't put a pistol upper on a rifle lower.

This. I keep a lower in pistol configuration so I dont get into trouble.

[Petrol & Powder]

The OP may be in a different state.

That was me thats stuck in IL for the time being. Sorry if there was any thread drift with that.

Opps, Yeah I was tracking the wrong post. My bad

[nelsonted1]

Watch this video.
You are inside the car trying to figure it all out.
We are yelling instructions on the way by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqgfiMxev4

[WJP]

You don't have the option of choosing other, rifle, or pistol on a 4473. Section B of the 4473 is to be completed by the seller/transferee and should reflect their A and D records (How it is logged in their books).

[jmorris]

I filed for the form 1’s for SBR, Silencer or 16” over all cut down barrel with permanent can (aka one stamp gun) and when it came back approved, I started building.

Your SBR AR lower receiver can be used with any caliber or length upper, same goes for an AR lower that is registered as a machinegun, no such thing as an SBR machinegun to the NFA Branch.

[mjwcaster]

According to the instructions on the 4473 a bare receiver should now be recorded as ‘receiver’

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download
————-
473.
Types of firearms include, but are not limited to: pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell (pistol grip firearm) or NFA firearms (machinegun, silencer, short-barreled shotgun, short-barreled rifle, destructive device or "any other weapon").
—————
I would have to find a copy of an older 4473, I am not sure the instructions were the same.

Many shops record them as ‘other’, I am pretty sure that’s what we did and our IOI was fine with it, but that was before the new 4473 came out.

Some states have weird rules and their FFLs will only list rifle or pistol, there was a thread about this a year or two ago.

Question- has anyone ever been prosecuted for making a pistol out of a rifle?


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[nikonuser]

the same issues apply here as they do with the t/c contender.

if it has a rifle barrel on it, its considered a rifle. so if you put a pistol barrel on it, you NEED to take the rifle stock components off of it FIRST.

[lar45]

I just got a couple of AR Lowers in from PSA and the shop listed them as Receivers.

[WJP]

Correct. When logged it will be receiver in type of firearm in a&d book. In section B 16 you check other (frame, receiver, etc). Section D under type should reflect a&d log/receiver.

[JimB..]

What’s on the 4473 is not considered conclusive evidence. Lots of lowers have been bought on 4473’s marked rifle, but as long as they got built first as a pistol then they are pistols. Of course if you buy a rifle then you’re limited to it being a rifle forever, even if you remove the stock.

Once you’ve first built it as a pistol you can then swap parts almost however you want so long as you don’t build an SBR at any point. Say you want to reconfigure from 300blk pistol to a .223 rifle with a collapsable stock. If the first thing you do is swap the stock then you’ve built an SBR, so instead first remove the upper, then install the stock and then the rifle upper. When you change back, same thing, don’t install the pistol upper until you remove the stock.

I said almost because there are some limitations about OAL and vertical grips, but those were covered above.

About machine shops, you may get pushback from a shop if you ask them to shorten a barrel. If you tell them, probably in writing, that you are cutting it down to make a pistol, that will give them some comfort.

About buying a used lower, if nobody knows how it was first built or even if it was ever built, then how could you be prosecuted for building it as a pistol. I just wouldn’t lose sleep over it unless you normally do the sorts of things that make the police want to examine every little detail of your life.

No I’m not an attorney, and obviously you should get legal advice if, after reading the regs yourself, you are uncertain how to proceed. I wouldn’t ask BATF, if you don’t understand the regs then their letter is unlikely to make things any clearer.

[WJP]

I'm not saying you can't build what you want if you follow local and fed laws. What I am saying is you can't tell the ffl to change how it's logged or mark it yourself on the 4473. They are logged as a receiver, not pistol or rifle.

[Baltimoreed]

While I have built several pcc’s, a [.45 acp] sbr and a AR rifle I’ve never seen the draw with the ar pistol/sbr chambered in a real rifle caliber. With the super short bbl there’s way too much blast and noise. In 9mm or .45 they are a hoot to shoot. My bud just built one in 9mm and it turned out very nice. They can be surprisingly accurate too but that’s just the stock mechanics giving you a better hold. All my short bbl builds were built on multi caliber lowers and in .45acp. With the ATF’s reclarification of how an ar pistol stock can be used there’s no need for an sbr except on non ar’s. I’m still waiting on a sbr permit to swap bbls on my WH Auto Ordinance Thompson. Good luck on your project.

[dkf]

The easiest way to own a short barreled AR (right now) is to buy a complete pistol lower with the "pistol brace" you want. Then you can get the sub 16" barrel to build the upper. I bought an AR lower receiver, built it with a pistol brace and then bought barrel to build the upper. Because I already had AR rifles and no SBR ARs at the time buying a sub 16" barrel would have been considered "constructive intent" and technically illegal. The suppressor/silencer is always an NFA item, even if you build it yourself. There are forms, background, taxes, etc to do and get approved before you can take delivery or start building the can. There is really zero reason cans and SBRs should be NFA items but that is our moronic government for ya.

Most regular machine shops won't even touch firearm parts. You usually have to go to a gunsmith or place like Adco firearms to get work done.

[SwissShooter]

The simple thing to do is to buy a already made pistol with the arm brace (see Ruger or Springfield) and shoot it off your shoulder (As the G&A guys did on Sportsman channel) You can add a can and have a SBR that ATF won't bitch about. Second option (more bucks) is to buy a Tactical Solutions TSAR-300 that gives you an SBR w/o a tax stamp. https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...-tsar-300-sbr/ It's ready for a can.

[dragon813gt]

You WANT your lower to be classified on the 4473 you fill out as OTHER. That said, you can build either pistol or rifle, of course if you choose pistol, max. barrel length and length OAL will have to be observed. Once you build a rifle, if it is ever described as a rifle, it will stay a rifle and you cannot then re-fit it as a pistol. If it remains described as other, I *think* you can do with it what you want, as long as it remains described as other.

This is correct. And when filling out the 4473 a stripped lower should be described as “other”. If the FFL tells you he has to put rifle or pistol he doesn’t know what he’s doing. A stripped lower can’t be classified as a rifle or pistol because it’s neither of them. And it doesn’t matter what your intent is in the future.

Once a rifle, always a rifle. A pistol can be converted to rifle length and back to pistol if one wishes. This was confirmed in ruling 2011-4. Here’s an ATF link on this subject: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-...tering-firearm