I just purchased and received some "type" alloy but unsure exactly what it is. Linotype, monotype, foundry type? This is not bar type material but individual letters which from what I have been reading is not linotype but some form of monotype or foundry type lettering alloy. Any suggestions as to figure out which?
Individual letters will probably be either Monotype or Foundry Type. Foundry type has a groove on the back or bottom and Mono type does not have the groove.
A google search can show you the alloy of each. Both are very hard.
lightman I had done that search before I posted this and what I had found had conflicting results. LASC has some good info but not quite what I was looking for. They have a general composition of the different types but not a very good explanation of how to differentiate the different types.
What I am trying to do is get an idea of how much I have to cut this down. 4 to 1, 5-1, 6-1, 10-1... Right now I have about 20# of soft SOWW and another 30# of a bit harder range scrap that I want to harden up a little..
I guess I'm not understanding exactly what you are asking. But I'll make another stab at it.
Linotype is literally lines of type. Usually many small letters in sentences.
Monotype is single blocks of letters. Usually 1/2 inches square or larger.
Foundry type looks about the same but has a notch or groove on the back or bottom.
Monotype has a composition of 10% tin, 16% antimony and 74% lead
Foundry type has a composition of 18% tin, 28% antimony and 54% lead
These two types of type were not normally melted down and recast as much as linotype was so what you have may be close to these percentages. You can download Bumpo's calculator to help you mix the allots that you have. Its in one of the stickies. I'm sorry but I don't know how to post links to the calculator or pictures of the different type metals. I hope this helps some.
lightman, thank you. After my last post even I had to ask myself if I was asking the question correctly or clearly.
I have seen pictures of what I believe to be linotype and it is shown as a single long stick with many letters. A couple of the searches I've read do state that one has a notch or groove while the other does not. Then I have read others that state just the opposite and one page that stated the notch or groove does not always exist and it depends on the manufacturer of the type.
What I have is single blocks of letters of different font sizes. On the letter side that would be the bottom of the letter there is a notch.
So hopefully I can assume this is not linotype but some sort of mono or foundry type.. I don't have a thermometer that I can trust enough to melt some and observe temperature. So I think I am going to melt about 1/2lb and then try and do a hardness test and then repeat with a few lbs. of lead and slowly add some of this type a little at a time.
Thanks for the assist lightman!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_metal page shows in charts how mono and foundry type can vary. Sightly different alloys were made for the two uses. The description of a notch to the rear or bottom is generally a good indicator of foundry. Mono will be all smooth blocks except for the type face. Still can vary a bit but good enough for government work.
The calculator is downloaded from a sticky in the lead and lead alloy forum. Is an excel spread sheet where you plug in weights on rows with different alloys and it calculates the final alloy percentage and approximate BHN. If you don't have Microsoft Excel then you can use Open Office Calc. A free open source download. https://www.openoffice.org/
Have to remember that Sn and Sb alloy with each other as well as with lead plus trace amounts of elements such as arsenic can all come together to make a difference in the BHN. There is a well established rate of hardness that tin or antimony impart as a formula available from the foundry Rotometals. That formula is applied in bumpo's calculator. Just saying when mixing scrap and printing alloy that will not be precisely known alloy.
There is a member BNE who for a pound of any lead will test a small sample of your lead. I tend to use his services to test high value lead or when I make a large batch (100# plus) of a specific alloy based on the alloy calculator and what I think the alloy is. Then I can adjust a bit based on what testing shows the actual alloy is. Add some plain or sweet alloy as the testing indicates to hit the target alloy if the actual alloy is different than calculated. Always better to do large batches with scrap based material. More consistent and less testing. Testing 3 batches at 30# vs 1 batch at 90# I then have 90 pounds the same.
I don't worry about Foundry vs Mono in small type. The larger stuff is easier to see the notch or lack of notch. I consider anything that came from hand set trays to be Foundry. If that is known. Small stuff one can just take a handful. Melt it. take a sample from it and send to BNE. The rest of it will average the same.
Last edited by RogerDat; 03-03-2020 at 12:11 AM.
Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.
Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.
Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat
Single letters will not be linotype. That is always in strips with the letters for complete words and phrases on the edge. It was created by machines using a keyboard to "type" what the strip would have cast in it. Used for news papers. Then melted down to be used again the next day. Might also be in bars with a key hole in the end. The bars were lowered into the pot that fed the linotype machine.
Because linotype only had to last for a single printing before being melted down and recast the alloy didn't need to have as much antimony or tin as foundry or mono type.
As alluded to in a prior post that remelting would deplete the tin which would be "refreshed" by adding tin or antimony back in. So depending on where in that depletion or refresh cycle the linotype is the alloy composition can vary. Not enough to be a huge issue for most bullet casters but a measurable amount.
Individual letters (mono & foundry) were reused over and over so the alloy had to be harder and had more tin to prevent that harder alloy from being brittle. It didn't however get melted so tends to be consistent alloy percentages.
Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.
Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.
Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat
RogerDat, thank you for the response and the link. I did a search on all three the other day and it was an interesting read for sure. Then again I will reference the LASC forum which also has provided a wealth of information.
My intention is to use this to harden the range scrap I've been getting which is quite soft. It appears to be somewhere between SOWW and COWW in hardness, actually closer to SOWW.
Right now I have about 35lbs of ingot range scrap and 15lbs of this type. So with what I have learned so far it shouldn't take much of this type to bring it up to COWW level or a little harder. Not really looking for a precise mix just a nice workable alloy.
My reading on this says that foundry type (individual letters) was the hardest, with the highest Sb and Sn content, lasting for up to 100,000 printing impressions, with pages composed of the type assembled by hand and used in the traditional letterpress printing presses. Monotype (also individual letters) was one of the newer, faster hot metal machine type setting techniques, made with alloy lower in tin and antimony (apparently the machines could not use the higher content alloys without clogging) that lasted 10,000 impressions. Linotype (lines of letters cast together) was a competing technology, cast of alloy with even less Sb and Sn, since it was meant to be used for just a single print run. "Mono-" ("one [letter]") and "Lino-" ("line of [letters/type]") are the trade marked descriptors of the competing hot metal typesetting techniques.
Lino is easy: a strip of metal with reversed text on one long edge. Mono and foundry are both individual reversed letter "slugs". They both can have a small "nick" (a thin groove) on the shank, usually on the side below the letter. Foundry has a wider "groove" on the bottom of the shank, while Mono is reported to be flat on the bottom.
Ironically, this difference was described by old printers responding to a query on a printing forum, coming from a member there who said he was asked about this by a member of a different forum. That second forum? Castboolits.gunloads.com. I kid you not!
Last edited by kevin c; 03-03-2020 at 05:12 PM.
Don't hold to the Lino is only word/phrase bars....I purchased 350# of Lino from a printer friend that did a lot of fliers/menus/posters...and he generated Lino in single letter form. I had quite a bit of word blocks in my buckets...but there was also a lot of single letters.
Just throwing it out there.
redhawk
The only stupid question...is the unasked one.
Not all who wander....are lost.
"Common Sense" is like a flower. It doesn't grow in everyone's garden.
If more government is the answer, then it was a really stupid question. - Ronald Reagan
Interesting!
ETA: was that one letter on a long, page wide strip, or one letter one a single letter wide strip?
Last edited by kevin c; 03-03-2020 at 05:11 PM.
kevin c. that is the same as what I found in my search. The LASC forum has a page that lists and breaks down alloy types like this;
Linotype........ Sn. 4%, Sb. 12%, Pb. 84%, BHN. 22
Sterotype...... Sn. 6%, Sb. 14%, Pb. 80%, BHN. 23
Monotype...... Sn. 9%, Sb. 19%, Pb. 72%, BHN. 28
Foundry type. Sn.15% Sb. 23%, Pb. 62% BHN. ?
These BHN numbers do not match up with some other numbers I've come across. But it is something to use as a reference.
I think I am going to take a couple pounds of the range scrap I have and add some of this type at a 10:1 ratio and see how it comes out. Anyone thinking different?
Last edited by kmw1954; 03-03-2020 at 02:49 PM.
Forgot to mention that last night I took a pc. of this and cut it in a pair of Lineman's pliers and it didn't cut, it snapped and was a pretty clean snap.
I found a link to what my individual letters looked like....BTW...these were larger letters (3/4" or larger)...all smaller type was in word/phrase form.
https://media.istockphoto.com/illust...-id1058288236?
redhawk
The only stupid question...is the unasked one.
Not all who wander....are lost.
"Common Sense" is like a flower. It doesn't grow in everyone's garden.
If more government is the answer, then it was a really stupid question. - Ronald Reagan
Huh, based on what I'd read, I would have called that monotype.
Did your printer friend have his own working Linotype machine, or did he buy fonts from a foundry and composit his own pages to print in his own press?
Which is why the question as I don't know either whether this is monotype or foundry type.. It does appear to be pretty hard and more brittle. This material was found on ebay and I took a chance. Which is why my thoughts of mixing up a few lbs and then check hardness. Figuring that if Foundry type even at 10:1 it should be pretty hard.
Being in original form makes the chances very good that its what it looks like. But its not a guarantee. Its been around lone enough that it could have been recast from other stuff.
I would be tempted to melt all of the type together into a single batch. That is if you intend to use it. If you should consider selling any then most buyers would prefer it in original form. Your idea of 10 to 1 ratio should work. I might even start at 20 to 1. Or you could get a sample tested and use the alloy calculator.
In trying to answer your questions accurately I did some searching and the listed percentages of mono and foundry type varied a few % from place to place and so did the hardness. That was kind of a surprise!
Lightman, you have been helpful and it's appreciated.
Figure after a test run and I work out proportions I figure I can then melt it all and pour it into manageable sizes ingots. 1st thing I need to do is get a gram scale to weigh this out.
I would follow Lightman's suggestion to try 20-1. If that is not hard enough then try 15-1.
Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.
One of the reasons for doing this small test batch is to try and determine the makeup of this type. By doing 10:1 it will make that easier because of the hardness difference between monotype and foundry type.. Most every recipe I see for linotype and SOWW is 4:1, Foundry type has 3X the tin and 2X the antimony as linotype.Originally Posted by ulav8r
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