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Thread: 45/70 case stretching problem

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    You might check with Lee Shaver. He used to be a Pedersoli repair or still is.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master

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    i absolutely concur with LP - if at all possible, have lee give it a look, he's one of the best at the single shot 'smith game (and no slouch as a national and international match winner). lee did the bbl/chamber makeover on my pedersoli sharps and he did an outstanding job.
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

  3. #23
    Boolit Man
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    Still in the process of diagnosing this problem. Upon further investigation the method I was using to check headspace was incorrect. The hammer when down has the breach block locked solid. I’m going to try another way to check it.

    As for a gunsmith if needed I will take your recommendations and try to contact Mr. Shaver.

    I did load the 45/70 win brass today with 78gr OE with two 0.060” fiber wads and shot it. It stretched 0.005”. As its fire formed now I’ll load it again and see what happens. I sure would like the problem to be soft drawn brass lik Lead pot found but I’m usually not that lucky!

    Thanks for all your input,
    JD

  4. #24
    Boolit Man
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    Well today I took that same win case and continued testing. I ultra sonic cleaned after every shot.
    The original coal was 2.102” prior to the first firing and after the first firing stretched 0.005” to 2.107”.

    My second firing was with the same load (78gr.OE and 2x .060 fiber wads again stretching 0.005” to 2.112”.

    Third loading I only changed the wad stack. I used 1x .030” fiber + 1x .125” cork. Again stretched 0.005” to 2.117”.

    Forth firing was a duplicate of the third with only 0.001” stretch, to 2.118”!

    At this point I checked the thickness of the case wall from mouth to web using a dial indicator and found no dip before the web indicating to me anyway that the street was uniform along the case wall. So I decided to change up things.

    The fifth firing I used the powder charge tp 80 grs and and used one 0.060” low density poly wad. After firing the case stretched 0.005” again to 2.123”.

    One the sixth firing I used the same 80 gr charge of powder but went back to the 1x.030” fiber and 0.125” cork wad stack. After firing the case stretched only 0.001” again bring the case pal to 2.124”.

    Apparently there is something different with this brass compared to the Starline shortened brass. Also it appears that the poly wads are stretching the brass more than the fiber and cork wad stack in my rifle. So far, a fiber wad alone will not seal enough to prevent gas cutting in my rifle. I don’t really care for such a thick cork wad but that’s the only stock I have. I’m waiting on some Napa rubber/cork wad to try. Hopefully the Starline brass I was using was a soft lot and that headspace is not my problem after all. Anyway, brass stretching 0.012” and separating after only two firings is a lot different from what I was experiencing today!

    Any input appreciated
    JD

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy dave roelle's Avatar
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    Are you doing anything to assure a smooth/clean interior case surface ?

  6. #26
    Boolit Man
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    Yes, im also brushing the interior. Now, I’m not polishing if that’s what you mean.

    Today I fire formed using a lube cookie and had no blow by or leading. Shot very good too and only stretched about 0.005”.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy dave roelle's Avatar
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    Try a polish with 0000 steel wool turned by electric drill on a wooden dowel the dowel needs a longitudinal saw cut to retain the wool. THEN

    Apply a very very light coat of johnsons paste wax when you wrap your patch(dry wrap)

    I take the additional step of sizing after wax application

    I cant measure any stretch after 10 or more loadings on the same brass (remington)

    Some old line paper patch shooters apply a bit of powdered graphite to the inside of the case after powder charging

    Have a very close look at the inside rim of your cases for a "wire rolled edge"

    Dave

  8. #28
    Boolit Man
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    Dave, thanks I’ll try that.

    Recently, I’ve found that a grease cookie made of thin card material (.013”) and .125” lube is sealing the chamber enough to prevent any blow back around the case mouth and very little case stretching. Actually yesterday I found some had not stretched at all or maybe a thousandth.

    That just blows my mind as I have never understood how it actually works. I guess it’s some hydraulic thing, but it works for sure. I even had a group around moa at 100 yesterday. That’s saying a lot for this old guy!

    I didn’t want to mess with lube as that’s what I liked about pp target that a lot of guys are just using some wad combination or poly wads and having no troubles. I guess I might be doomed to cookies.

  9. #29
    Boolit Man
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    Dave is your chamber a standard gg chamber?

    I also tried a .060” fiber with 1/16” Napa rubberized cork and I’m back to gas cutting!

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    What are you defining as gas cutting?

    If you are concerned about blow by around the case mouth you can leave it belled. Even better is to anneal the cases about 1/2" back from the case mouths.
    Rather than crimping my unsized cases I FL size. My die sizes and excessive amount so I expand my cases with an expander that is the same size as my bullets which can vary between .458 and .462. That means i have a lot of different expanders from Track of the Wolf.
    My cast bullets are only held in place by the amount of spring back of the cases when the cases are expanded to match the exact bullet diameter.

    You can also shoot even larger diameter bullets with low pressure loads to improve gas sealing.
    I have had good accuracy with bullets up to .462 (.004" oversize). The only negative is the ring of lead foil left at the case mouth when the case is extracted. For those not familiar with the lead foil ring at the case mouth - it occurs when the driving bands are shaved off as the soft oversize bullet is forced into the rifling.
    EDG

  11. #31
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    What are you defining as gas cutting?

    If you are concerned about blow by around the case mouth you can leave it belled. Even better is to anneal the cases about 1/2" back from the case mouths.
    Rather than crimping my unsized cases I FL size. My die sizes and excessive amount so I expand my cases with an expander that is the same size as my bullets which can vary between .458 and .462. That means i have a lot of different expanders from Track of the Wolf.
    My cast bullets are only held in place by the amount of spring back of the cases when the cases are expanded to match the exact bullet diameter.

    You can also shoot even larger diameter bullets with low pressure loads to improve gas sealing.
    I have had good accuracy with bullets up to .462 (.004" oversize). The only negative is the ring of lead foil left at the case mouth when the case is extracted. For those not familiar with the lead foil ring at the case mouth - it occurs when the driving bands are shaved off as the soft oversize bullet is forced into the rifling.
    I’m patching to bore with a baco 441520m (I think that’s the right #) with #9 onion skin paper. If I get gas cutting the paper will be black and I get leading not to mention the bullet will go off target. So I can’t really leave a bell as I’m not belling the case. I actually have to taper crimp the mouth of the case so the 0.449” pp bullet won’t fall out as it’s only seated 0.100” in the case.

    I have what I guess you’d call a GG throat. A gradual taper from chamber end into the barrel. I’ve tried fiber, poly (LD&HD), cork, rubberized cork, and paper wads and with all I get some blow back on the case. Not all give me gas cutting but my best accuracy has been with a 0.125” grease cookie with 0.0013” paper wad top and bottom. No particular reason for the wad thickness, I just had some card material handy. But I have absolutely no blow by with the cookie.

    I know I could try patching to groove but for now I’m still experimenting with patching to bore. I’m also keeping my eye on case stretching because I was having some trouble with some Starline 45/90 brass I had shortened for my 45/70 chamber. I now think it was a bad lot of brass. I sure hope so, as I first thought it was a headspace problem.

  12. #32
    Boolit Man
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    I might add I’m fire forming new brass during all this.

  13. #33
    Boolit Man
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    I decided today I’d give LD poly another try.
    I loaded 83hr of OE 2f in both a shortened Starline 45/90 case and also a WW 45/70 case both had been fire formed. In the 45/90 case I used one 0.060” ld poly wad and in the WW 45/70 case I used a 0.060” fiber and topped it off with a 0.060” ld poly. I also might add I polished the interior of these case to a mirror finish to see if that would help. Bullet seated 0.1” as previously.

    Both cases after firing stretched over 0.010” and the 45/90 case had blow by. Also I had a trace of lead on a patch. I guess right now the only thing that works with a bore patched bullet in my gun is the addition of a grease cookie. I may try a softer alloy at some point but right now I’m going to use up my 16:1.

    I may also try groove patched in the future, but I’m not giving up on the bore patched just yet. I know some have posted that poly wads stretch brass and I have to agree. At least in some chambers.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDNC View Post
    I decided today I’d give LD poly another try.
    I loaded 83hr of OE 2f in both a shortened Starline 45/90 case and also a WW 45/70 case both had been fire formed. In the 45/90 case I used one 0.060” ld poly wad and in the WW 45/70 case I used a 0.060” fiber and topped it off with a 0.060” ld poly. I also might add I polished the interior of these case to a mirror finish to see if that would help. Bullet seated 0.1” as previously.

    Both cases after firing stretched over 0.010” and the 45/90 case had blow by. Also I had a trace of lead on a patch. I guess right now the only thing that works with a bore patched bullet in my gun is the addition of a grease cookie. I may try a softer alloy at some point but right now I’m going to use up my 16:1.

    I may also try groove patched in the future, but I’m not giving up on the bore patched just yet. I know some have posted that poly wads stretch brass and I have to agree. At least in some chambers.
    are you in any manner crimping both the PPB and the LDPE wad?

    i ask because my sharps will only load custom reformed .45-70 brass (modified lyman .45-70 sizing die) and therefore will only load/shoot PPBs. i use starline brass that's been chamber oriented and fire formed in my sharps. the ultra sonic cleaned (INside and out) case gets drop filled with 78 grains of swiss 1-1/2f and then a .060" LDPE wad is thumb seated just past the rim and press die compressed to .1" below the case mouth. the .443" slick gets wrapped to .4493" in diameter and that presents a very loose fit into the loaded brass, so a stock lyman taper crimp die is used to very slightly close the case mouth. this allows the PPB to rotate and be pulled out and pushed back in using fingers. i get near zero case elongation, even after at least five reloads/firings. all fired brass is left as is, other than u/s cleaning. very little neck tension may be the reason for not being concerned over fired case length ... ?
    Last edited by rfd; 03-17-2020 at 06:47 AM. Reason: correction for taper crimp die
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy dave roelle's Avatar
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    Standard Shiloh chamber

  16. #36
    Boolit Man
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    Rfd,
    I’ve been using a short taper crimp die and I can’t reme the manufacture as I’ve got so many dies out that I’m trying. But I will say that I’ve even used no crimp and I get stretch with the poly wads.

    After the trouble with the Starline brass I thought I’d try some 45/70 WW brass I had on hand. I had fired one single case several times and just for giggles yesterday I tried it again with the poly wad and used that short taper crimp die to just close the mouth enough to hole the ppl in. Actually it still wiggled a little. This case was not FL sized. It stretched again over 0.010”.

    I did notice that this die (shot neck sizing)was actually burnishing the case down about half way to get to this point of crimp. I thought I might use a Lee FCD so I tried that but I didn’t like that at all. I have a Redding neck size die but it won’t close the mouth enough on fire formed win brass.

    I had 9 new WW cases today remaining to be fire formed. I loaded them with 80gr OE 2f with a paper card op wad with 0.125” lube and another card wad. Powder was compressed approximately 0.1” leaving the same for the bullet. These six give me a little over an inch group at 50 yds. Not great but no fliers. These cases stretched from 2-5 thousands.

    With this chamber I may be better off just FL sizing because it’s easier to but a slight taper crimp. It appears that I’m sizing more when attempting to use the taper crimp on a unsized fire formed case. As for the case stretching, every time I use the poly wads I get excessive stretching that never stops. And with all other wads like cork and fiber I get gas blow by unless I use a lube cookie.

    Cast some baco #442530E today with 16:1 and with #9 onion they are 0.450-.4505” and feel firm when seating. It’ll come together sometime I hope. If not I’ll patch to groove and try that.

  17. #37
    Boolit Man
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    BTW
    It appears after two firings with lube cookies the stretching stops or is only a thousandth or two.

    Where did you get the modified taper crimp die?
    Last edited by JDNC; 03-16-2020 at 09:35 PM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    JDNC, i'm not experienced or smart enuf to understand yer case stretching, but i'd say the biggest difference 'tween yer gun and mine is the chamber, where i need to reform my starline brass in a modified sizing die to fit my gun's chamber. as to the "modified" lyman taper crimp die, that was my mistake, it's stock and not modified in any way. it was the lyman sizing die that required machine shop modification so that the die could be used for reforming .45-70 brass.
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

  19. #39
    Boolit Man
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    Rfd,
    I’m familiar with what some call the pp chamber and understand how much easier that would be. I actually shot this rifle with gg bullets and I can’t remember having any stretching problems.

    I’d really like to get away from the whole lube/grease thing but I might not be able to with this chamber. The WW brass is not particularly my choice, that’s just all I had on hand to try after the stretching trouble with the Starline 45/90 brass. I have noticed is that it has a lot of capacity. I really think I had some soft brass with the Starline and compounded that problem with the poly wads. I’m going to order more Starline brass but I think since I’m not having any problems at the chamber end I going to order 45/70 brass as it’s half the price of the 45/90. I don’t want to waste time shortening it anyway and don’t see the need. I have a bench-source annealer but I don’t really think that annealing brass is going to help much either with ppb. I may look at that later.

    After the brass mouth is fire formed to my 0.480” chamber the standard taper crimp dies size too much down the case before closing the mouth to hold the bullet, I think. That’s the reason I think I might just as well FL size if I’m going to reduce half the length of the case anyway. But l like not sizing the brass as I did using gg bullets.

    Today I’m going to try a 30/06 FL and a 45acp taper crimp die to see if they will taper the mouth more sharply. All except 9 cases are fire formed and I need to decide if I’m going to FL size or not so I can get back the wad and cookie thing.

    BTW, I’ve followed you on YouTube and you’re pretty smooth with those baco wipes. I tried them but couldn’t get my barrel quite clean enough. I made up some of the critters with the nylon brushes and they are harder to push through but clean the barrel quite well.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    JDNC, if i had to size .45-70 brass after each firing and resort to using a lube cookie, that'd be a serious problem for me and really put a bad crimp in my .45-70 fun.

    the BACO wipes did the job for me, but brent's gophers are much better for sure.

    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check