MP 359 Hammer HP expansion test

[oldhenry]

My only HP experience before now was with an Ideal 358439 back in the '60s & I never gave those any kind of test.

The 359 Hammer is my 1st. MP HP mold. My test load was the wide HP with 4.6 gr. HP-38 in .38 spec. case with a Federal #100 primer. the alloy is 50/50 COWW/SOWW+ a guessed 1.5-2.0% tin. After reading about the alloy some members are using I was afraid my alloy might be too hard (brittle).

I have been saving empty gallon milk jugs: I used 7 since I had no idea about penetration. The boolit stopped in #3.

The photo tells the tale: I'm pleased. I think I'll try the penta point with GC in .357 cases next (with something less than a maximum load).

Also on future test I'll not stand so close to the jugs in order to stay dry.

Henry

[Wheelguns 1961]

What do you estimate the velocity at?

[Iwsbull]

That is awesome looking. Did you run them through a chrome to check your speed?? It looks like you have the speed dialed in for expansion without fragmentation. The MP hp molds cast great boolits too.

[oldhenry]

What do you estimate the velocity at?

The solid version of this boolit is 173 gr. & the wide HP weighs 158 gr.

I didn't chronograph it (My "Chrony" is vintage '80s & I haven't used it for years: it may not work?). My Lyman "Pistol and Revolver Handbook" (also old, but can't find an edition date) gives one (the 158 gr. Lyman #358156) a maximum (not +P) 231 (same as HP-38) charge of 4.7 from a 4" bbl. producing a velocity of 885 fps). The other 158 (Lyman #358311) a maximum charge of 231 (not +P) of 4.9 for 906 fps. From this I think velocity about 850.

The test boolit was shot from a 4" 686.

Iwsbull, this answers your question.

Henry

[dkf]

Well looks like your alloy was not too hard. Nice expansion there and it held on to the shroom.

[Bantou]

What alloy did you use? I may be trying to acquire one of those to start keeping in the 38 that resides in my bedside table.

Yes I know Mas Ayub and all that but I live in rural Texas.

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[Bantou]

Disregard, I must have overlooked it in your original post the first time I read it.


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[Bantou]

I wonder how it would do if it was PC’d


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[OS OK]

Nice 'shrooms' you have over there in Georgia.

Have you ever wondered how much energy that mushroom dumps in the first Jug?
Here's a clue...

"First Time Ever" . . . (to chronograph a mushroom exiting a JugBust)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2maRWzS58gQ

It was a MP 452-200 HP with the penta pins installed.



They vary in size according to the speed they enter the Jugs & of course their Pb blend...but most loose almost exactly 1/2 their speed in the distance of one water filled jug.

[oldhenry]

OS OK
My wife enjoyed the video, but not necessarily for the technical information. I lined-up my 7 jugs on a portable plastic top table & I wrapped duct tape around the group to hold them together.. Not wanting to damage the table top, I squatted down to table top level to make sure the trajectory would be parallel to the table top. Unfortunately the muzzle of the 686 was only about 12" from the #1 jug. Unexpectedly (to me) @ the shot I got drenched.

The results of your test confirms what the post mortem of the 3 jugs told me.

Jug #1 looked like a grenade went off inside.
Jug #2 had a 3" circular flap on the entrance side & a self sealing hole on the exit side.
Jug #3 had a small self sealing hole on the entrance side & a small "outie" dent on the off side. I should have made photos, but they're gone now.

The recovered boolit weighs 157 gr.

I did not weigh the specific boolit before seating, but I weighed a few after lube/sizing & they weighed 158 gr..

I'm pleased with the weight retention .

[OS OK]

oldhenery...you can imagine how surprised I was when I first tested in a water filled 4" PVC pipe, I figured that a rubber band around a cloth over the pipe would keep me from any splash...heheee...that water came out like I was standing in front of a fire hose!

I still laugh at that one!

[mnewcomb59]

Nice stuff oldhenry! Depending on how recently those were cast, they may age harden some.

With my 850 fps 250 grain 45 colt loads using 2-2-96 air cooled, the bullets mushroomed two weeks after cast and 2 months after cast they only swelled up as large as a wadcutter or slightly larger.

You are on the right track with your bullet alloy. Many people say antimony alloys make bad HP alloys but I have been using a bunch with decent luck. Decent luck being 100% weight retention in HPs from 800 to 1500 fps and in flat noses 98% weight retention at 2000+ fps impact.

One main point to consider is that you want all of your antimony encapsulated by tin in a eutetic alloy. This happens when your tin is equal or higher than your antimony percentage. It can be seen by the fact that hot bullets do not frost and make antimony snowflake patterns n bullets or ingots.

The drawback to antimony alloys is that they age harden and age soften over esoteric timescales that are alloy specific. Tin really calms down the spread from hardest to softest, but it still apparently happens.

Because of this, before I use a batch for something serious I will test that batch close to when I use it to be sure nothing has changed from the bullet sample or notes.

I am only interested in controlled expansion hollow points. Many standard weight bullets will mushroom huge and under penetrate. With modern cavity designs expansion is no problem, but useful penetration can be a problem. Hollow points that penetrate less than 12" gel or 4 milk jugs penetrate too shallow for deer or hunting. Many controlled expansion JHPs penetrate 4-5 jugs and will pass through deer.

I am finding to match penetration of JHP you have to go up in bullet weight with cast HP. I am running the 124 NOE TC HP and it is a 3 milk jug load in 9mm which is 10-12" gel and I am struggling to cast the dinky cup point so it has me looking to the 145-155 range.

My NOE 452 265 WFN will make a 250 deep HP that expands over 70 cal but only penetrates 3 milk jugs. Too much of a good thing when the 200-RF from Lee penetrates 9. Instead I much prefer the cup point and whacked one deer this year with almost a Texas heart shot. The bullet penetrated the ham, hip bone, backstrap and spine and penetrated 20" of pure meat ẃith light bone. This is a 5 jug load and was found in the backstrap near front shoulders.

Tin lead alloys are more stable in hardness over time, simpler, and are better for stockpiling. I hate weighing monotype and tin and lead ingots and doing the math to figure percentages. 30 to 1 is much easier to make and to make the same again in the future.

I recommend using your wheel weights diluted down a little further. As you get towards 2% antimony the age hardening curve is more dramatic. Try to do the math by weighing your ingredients to keep your tin equal or heavier than your antimony percentage, or cast some bullets and verify they will NOT get frosty, then you know you are there.

I also recommend trying to find a repeatable 4-5 jug load, which is the hardest part. That will penetrate enough for the FBI penetration test and deer hunting. Good luck!

[onelight]

You guys are getting some great performance from those cast HP boolits.

[oldhenry]

mnewcomb59,
Thanks for your in-depth information.
Henry

[oldhenry]

I accumulated enough jugs to test the "Penta Point" in .357.

Load is 13.0 gr. 4227 with a CCI 550 primer. Same alloy (50/50+1.5-2.0). I arrived at this load by checking an old Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook. That reference shows a starting load of 9.8 of 4227 for 835fps & a max. of 14.5 for 1233fps for the Lyman 168gr 358429. I figure 13.0 should produce close to 1100fps. The penta point MP "Hammer" weighs 163 gr. (my sample weighed 163.3). The bearing surface of the Hammer is about the same as the 168gr. Lyman 358429.

Just to make sure I fired the load in a Ruger BH first.

I'll attach 4 photos separately that give the results.

[oldhenry]

This is a 3 jug penetration & the #3 jug had a self sealing type hole on the front side & no evidence of trauma on the inside of the rear side

With the penetration being the same as the wide HP version in .38 spec. I see no advantage to the .357. I do intend to test again with the small HP in .357 & possible bump powder charge to 13.5

From the close-up (#4) this velocity, alloy & HP configuration has reached it's limit.

[wgg]

I shot the MP Hammer hp today with a plus p charge of Longshot powder. The same charge weight Hodgdon shows velocity of 965 fps for a Hornady 158 XTP. They list barrel length at 7.7", I used a 4" S&W 10-8. I lined up 6 gallon jugs of water. The first jug impact was impressive, # 2,3,4 ruptured. The bullet shed the hp in the jugs. The solid base weighed 100 grains. The bullet , coated with a GC weighed 159 grains. The alloy I used was 70/30 ww and soft lead. I cast the bullets yesterday. Waiting for my boys to drink more milk so I can check the penta and see how it behaves.

[oldhenry]

I shot the MP Hammer hp today with a plus p charge of Longshot powder. The same charge weight Hodgdon shows velocity of 965 fps for a Hornady 158 XTP. They list barrel length at 7.7", I used a 4" S&W 10-8. I lined up 6 gallon jugs of water. The first jug impact was impressive, # 2,3,4 ruptured. The bullet shed the hp in the jugs. The solid base weighed 100 grains. The bullet , coated with a GC weighed 159 grains. The alloy I used was 70/30 ww and soft lead. I cast the bullets yesterday. Waiting for my boys to drink more milk so I can check the penta and see how it behaves.

Good information: did you get wet?

I need to correct some of the info in my recent post. The correct weight of the "Hammer" Penta-point before loading was 166.3 rather than the 163.3 stated. I found this mistake when I weighed the recovered boolit which is 166. No weight loss!

My second test was also made using my S&W 686 4" bbl.