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Thread: Meaning of being born of the Spirit of God

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmitty View Post
    is it possible that jesus was saying a man in his spiritual state before being born of the spirit of god is spiritually blind, and incapable of discerning spiritual matters?
    yes, man is born spiritual blind

  2. #22
    Boolit Master flyingmonkey35's Avatar
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    Despite the deffention of the word "cult"

    It has a significantly different meaning in modern society.

    When use the word cult. We normally associate it with fanatics. Ie doomsday cults. Where a leader uses his /her power over others for pure greed.

    The sheep just follow or are promised more power over the others.

    I am not after converting anyone.









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  3. #23
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    Airborne primate, "modern society" has never gotten much of anything right about religion in general and Christianity in particular.
    --------------------------------------------

    Setting your personal focus aside, the life blood of the LDS has always been centered around pulling others into the ranks - i.e., "converting" them. I have a beautiful great niece along with her two very bright brothers immersed in that program right now. It's a large and well organized program of sending out teenage "elders" as missionaries who are themselves trying to earn their way into becoming heavenly "gods" like Joe Smith and Brigham Young are said to have done.

    Having a totally different God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, a multilayered heaven, a vastly different "bible" and a totally earned salvation makes the LDS a cult religion much different from Christianity. I wish it were not true but all of THAT makes it a religious group disconnected from Christianity in all but a convoluted name. And past LDS "popes" have publicly admitted so.

    ** Jehovah Witness, Christian Scientists, Universalists (and a few other groups) claiming to be "Christian" are also, and by the same criteria, religious cults. Seventh Day Adventists appear to straddle the fence between Biblically sound and cultish doctrines (according to Ellen White).
    Last edited by 1hole; 03-10-2020 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Timmy, I suppose by your badly unfocused concept of bigots you think we should give credibility to the beliefs of flat earthers, those who stoutly insist we never went to the moon, believe Billy and Hillary may be honest, O.J. didn't do it and firmly believe 9-11 was a U.S. Government plot, etc.

    Naw. Being "open minded" doesn't require we have holes in our heads.
    You don't have to agree with them or even listen to them but you have to tolerate them not berate them or belittle them. Otherwise you are a bigot.

    Tim
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingmonkey35 View Post
    Despite the deffention of the word "cult"

    It has a significantly different meaning in modern society.

    When use the word cult. We normally associate it with fanatics. Ie doomsday cults. Where a leader uses his /her power over others for pure greed.

    The sheep just follow or are promised more power over the others.

    I am not after converting anyone.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    "Where a leader uses his /her power over others for pure greed." You mean like Evangelical Christian Mega Church leaders? Maybe you mean the local Protestant Community or Congregational Church where the Pastor is supported by the contributions of his flock. I think the definition is better than the common usage. The common usage is derogatory and has been weaponized to allow it to be used as an insult against groups like the LDS or Unitarian Universalists or Islamists.

    It is shame on us if we associate Cult with Fanatics. It is improper over reaching association. Not smart thinking. Fanatics are fanatics not by definition Cultists.

    Yes, you are correct about common usage I am not being critical just trying to be informative and educational.

    Tim
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Airborne primate, "modern society" has never gotten much of anything right about religion in general and Christianity in particular.
    --------------------------------------------

    Setting your personal focus aside, the life blood of the LDS has always been centered around pulling others into the ranks - i.e., "converting" them. I have a beautiful great niece along with her two very bright brothers immersed in that program right now. It's a large and well organized program of sending out teenage "elders" as missionaries who are themselves trying to earn their way into becoming heavenly "gods" like Joe Smith and Brigham Young are said to have done.

    Having a totally different God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, a multilayered heaven, a vastly different "bible" and a totally earned salvation makes the LDS a cult religion much different from Christianity. I wish it were not true but all of THAT makes it a religious group disconnected from Christianity in all but a convoluted name. And past LDS "popes" have publicly admitted so.

    ** Jehovah Witness, Christian Scientists, Universalists (and a few other groups) claiming to be "Christian" are also, and by the same criteria, religious cults. Seventh Day Adventists appear to straddle the fence between Biblically sound and cultish doctrines (according to Ellen White).
    In your mind what makes a religion a "Cult Religion." Is Islam a Cult, Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu? Are they not cults because they make no claim of Christianity but if a religions claims to be Christian but does not meet some test of yours then they are a Cult? What about Roman Catholic?

    Tim
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master flyingmonkey35's Avatar
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    First this is done on my phone so forgive me for spelling or grammar mistakes.

    I made some comments.



    Setting your personal focus aside,

    I was born and raised in the lds faith. I'm 45 years old. I am non active member. But faithful.

    These are my opinions based on my life experiences.

    -
    As with all things there are zealots out thier that take things WAY to far.
    -

    the life blood of the LDS has always been centered around pulling others into the ranks - i.e., "converting" them. I have a beautiful great niece along with her two very bright brothers immersed in that program right now.

    Program? Okay interesting word choice.

    -
    It's a large and well organized program of sending out teenage "elders" as missionaries.

    Not just 19 year olds we have retired folk as well.

    The catholic church has missions as well. That use young priests to go forth and spread the word. Do they not?

    -
    who are themselves trying to earn their way into becoming heavenly "gods" like Joe Smith and Brigham Young are said to have done.

    "If anyone ever asks if your a god. You say Yes" Ghostbusters.

    Food for thought. If when you go in to the next life and you are able to gain all the knowledge in heaven would you not become unto like a god yourself?

    The lds faith dose not state that you become the God. Just godlike.
    Are the angels in heaven not god like?

    -


    Having a totally different God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit,

    Yes we believe there is God the father. Jesus the son. And the holy spirit the mother. Completely separate beings.

    -
    a multilayered heaven,
    Yup. We also dont have a hell. Just the lowest level of heaven.

    And outerdarkness where the light of heaven dose not reach. But you can still move upwards In heaven if you choose.

    Not stuck in damintion for all eternity. That God would be cruel.

    In my personal opinion I think earth is hell or heaven depending on how you make it.

    -
    a vastly different "bible"
    not really.
    But there's a few other catholic versions as well that change the wording to match the current agenda of the time.

    Suffer not a witch to live lead to the deaths and torture of thousands of innocent souls all because some ****** got his panties in a twist.

    The bible was written by man from a religion that persecuted the educated. As a tool to make others fear the religous leaders as only they could save your soul. So you better give them money. Not until the past hundred years has the masses become educated that they were forced to move to different tactics.

    -
    and a totally earned salvation makes the LDS a cult religion much different from Christianity.

    You mean it's free. I dont have to be a decent human being? I just have to say a few hail Mary's and all will be forgiven?

    Wow. We mean Earned as in live a righteous fruitful life.
    -

    I wish it were not true but all of THAT makes it a religious group disconnected from Christianity in all but a convoluted name.

    Christian. = the belief that christ walked the earth. And died for our sins. Is that not the core foundation of all christianity? And dont forget he was a Jewish rabbi. That did not like the way things were being run. So voiced his opinion and was killed for it by religious leaders who afraid of loosing their power of thier flock.

    -

    And past LDS "popes" have publicly admitted so.

    Popes? We call them prophets. Yes and others have said we are at our core Christian's.
    -
    In your op how big dose a religion need to be to stop being called a cult?

    Millions or billions?

    -

    ** Jehovah Witness, Christian Scientists, Universalists (and a few other groups) claiming to be "Christian" are also, and by the same criteria, religious cults. Seventh Day Adventists appear to straddle the fence between Biblically sound and cultish doctrines (according to Ellen White).[/QUOTE]

    You forget sincetology. They dont claim to be Christian. But are definitely a religous cult.

    Niels

    Ps flyingmonkey. Is a wizard of oz reference.
    Last edited by flyingmonkey35; 03-11-2020 at 02:08 AM.

  8. #28
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    The Kingdom of the Cults is a book by Walter Martin. It has been around since the 1960's and been updated as needed. It is a standard work used by mainstream Christians when studying religions other than Christianity as well as groups that have doctrine with some basis in the Bible, but have teachings that fall outside of the Bible's teaching.

    The book defines a cult as: "a group of people gathered about a specific person—or person's misinterpretation of the Bible."

    The reason I wrote all that is to explain why you may hear Christians refer to certain groups as cults even though the majority of people do not refer to them as such. If you adhered to the above definition, the Roman Catholic Church would even be considered a cult.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master flyingmonkey35's Avatar
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    If you take a college sociology class that is what is taught about the words cult.


    "Jonestown", was a remote settlement established by the Peoples Temple, a cult under the leadership of Jim Jones.

    And David Koresh. Charles Manson etc...

    Horrific examples

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingmonkey35 View Post
    If you take a college sociology class that is what is taught about the words cult.

    "Jonestown", was a remote settlement established by the Peoples Temple, a cult under the leadership of Jim Jones.

    And David Koresh. Charles Manson etc...

    Horrific examples
    They are indeed horrific examples of cults gone bad. But they do not, by that fact, properly define what a cult is. There is no reason to say all religious cults are full of evil people and, as I mentioned before, some cults (most?) have as nice a people as anyone could ask.

    Four major ways showing how the LDS have corrupted Christianity are (1) the idea of the Holy Spirit being a "holy mother"; (2) multiple layers of God's heaven (with Jesus and the Father being in charge of the lower division and Joe Smith and B. Young in charge of the upper division), effectively making themselves gods; (3) our God is eternal and not procreated as the LDS "gods" are; (4) LDS people who jump through the hoops of temple rites and pay the costs of doing secret things in the right temple(s) and are approved by Joe Smith may be allowed to become gods of their own universe where, with a vast collection of wives, will get to procreate a new world full of baby souls; that's some weird stuff right there and none of it is Christian doctrine. Any group with a different god and alternate way(s) of salvation is a cult.

    Finally, I gave a short list of common cults as examples; it wasn't intended to be all inclusive. I don't know anything about Scientology except the name but I don't think they make any false claim to be Christian so, like Hindus and Muslims, they don't matter in this discussion.
    Last edited by 1hole; 03-11-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master flyingmonkey35's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=1hole;4848232]They are indeed horrific examples of cults gone bad. But they do not, by that fact, properly define what a cult is. There is no reason to say all religious cults are full of evil people and, as I mentioned before, some cults (most?) have as nice a people as anyone could ask.

    Four major ways showing how the LDS have corrupted Christianity are (1) the idea of the Holy Spirit being a "holy mother"; (2) multiple layers of God's heaven (with Jesus and the Father being in charge of the lower division and Joe Smith and B. Young in charge of the upper division), effectively making themselves gods; (3) our God is eternal and not procreated as the LDS "gods" are; (4) LDS people who jump through the hoops of temple rites and pay the costs of doing secret things in the right temple(s) and are approved by Joe Smith may be allowed to become gods of their own universe where, with a vast collection of wives, will get to procreate a new world full of baby souls; that's some weird stuff right there and none of it is Christian doctrine. Any group with a different god and alternate way(s) of salvation is a cult.


    ---
    1. We agree to disagree on that. I just personally find it to make more sense.

    2. Say what now? So the lds church teachs we can achieve god hood status and serve god in the way he sees fit if we so choose.

    3. So is ours we just believe he at one time had a physical form.


    4. Buahhahaha. I find that is the biggest joke some one made up about LDS temple rights.

    I've been through the lds temple.

    Nothing is secret. Just sacred.
    And we take a vow not to discuss it with outsiders like a ton of other religious ordenceces.

    You can watch YouTube videos of it if you want.

    Sure lots of symbolism in it. But I guarantee you the catholic church has rights that are odd when you get higher up as well.


    But in all honesty it's just the story of Adam and eve being tempted out of the garden.

    Then a quick thing for the dead. A lot of people find that one strange. Then meditation and prayer.

    4.5 As for the second thing it sure sounds better then a eternity in hell with no chance of escape?

    But again taken way out of context.

    We believe eternal marriage between a man and a woman. And that your family is your family for all time.

    As for the multiple wife thing.

    Pologymy is not a unknown thing in every religion.

    However it was orginally used for men to be allowed to marry and take care of widowers and thier children.

    As it was taught to always have a father I. The house.

    And of course some people went crazy with it. Give em a inch and they'll take your hand.

    The practice was abolished in 1890. And it's no crazier now with gay marriage being allowed.

    -

    So you are saying if your religion dose not line up exactly with Catholics in views of a different god and or alternate way(s) of salvation is a cult.

    So muslims and Jews. Hindew , are a cult?

    You are starting if your not Roman catholic or a branch of it your a cult?

    Call it a church or religion.

    I think the Roman catholic cult has a interesting ring to it as well.



    Btw it's Joseph Smith. He never went by Joe.

    And it's The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Not lds or mormons.

    Mormon is just a book name.

    Im Not offended by it just clarification.


    It's like calling you a biblelite. As the bible is your book.

    Or a thorahlight

    Anyway good debate is good for soul.

    Interesting fact whenever Joseph Smith lectured. He always used the unmodified king James version.


    --
    Next your going ask about the holy underwear that temple worthy lds members wear?

    Thier is nothing holy about them. Unless they are in disrepair.

    They are just modest and should be comfortable.

    They do have symbols on them. That mean keep god in your heart. Stay true to your self. Hunger for the truth and kneel before god.

    That's it. No magic powers.

    Just somthing to think about when you put them on. If you remember.





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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingmonkey35 View Post
    ... I guarantee you the catholic church has rights that are odd when you get higher up as well.
    I fully agree with you about the RCC. I haven't said much about them because they haven't been part of this discussion.

    Then a quick thing for the dead. A lot of people find that one strange.
    I find it odd too but that's one of my least objections.

    As for the second thing it sure sounds better then a eternity in hell with no chance of escape?
    Sure, an eternity of oblivion would mean no real penalty for human evil and the punishment of Hitler would be no worse than the penalty for any morally good non-believer. But, soul oblivion is not what the Word says so Joe Smith's imaginative version of eternity in both heaven and hell is invalid.

    We believe eternal marriage between a man and a woman. And that your family is your family for all time.
    Yes but ... only if they have been "sealed" by special men in a specific Temple ceremony. I believe in eternal marriage for men and women who have been spiritually joined into "one flesh", at no cost, by an act of God.

    Pologymy is not a unknown thing in every religion.
    I know of no Christian group that now or ever has sanctioned polygamy by their members. If taking care of widows and children required being bed partners it would not have been sanctioned at first and forbidden later. That change was dictated by secular law, it was not and is not a "new doctrine" of LDS faith.

    And of course some people went crazy with it. Give em a inch and they'll take your hand.
    Sooo ... some went crazy with it! Tell me, how many "wives" did ol' Joe have, how many did Young have?

    And it's no crazier now with gay marriage being allowed.
    Christians agree and we have opposed it in every instance. That's a big part of why Democrats, as a group, dispise us so bad.

    So muslims and Jews. Hindew , are a cult?
    They would be cults if they claimed to be Christians but clung to their non-Christian teachings; they do not.

    You are starting if your not Roman catholic or a branch of it your a cult?
    Not if it was my dying breath.

    Btw it's Joseph Smith. He never went by Joe. ... And it's The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Not lds or mormons.
    Mr. Smith is quite dead and his soul is quite uncomfortable. I don't believe he is ever going to object to anyone calling him Joe.

    My family sometimes tells me the long accepted names "LDS/Mormon" are out of style today but when you have heard them referring to themselves the old ways it's a mote point and using the whole new thing in every instance gets tiresome.

    Im Not offended by it just clarification.
    Me too. Seriously.

    It's like calling you a biblelite. As the bible is your book.
    The Bible is my favorite Book but it's not mine, it was given to and belongs to all mankind. And the Holy Bible needs no other stack of man-made books for a so-called "second witness."

    Interesting fact whenever Joseph Smith lectured. He always used the unmodified king James version.
    Well, in all fairness, the KJV was the only English Bible around in the early 1,700s so the fact Joe used it carries no special weight to me.

    Next your going ask about the holy underwear that temple worthy lds members wear?
    No, I'm not going to ask. They are weird but a trivial bit of cultish symbolism to me. And they sure don't look comfortable, especially in Florida where my family lives.

    Just somthing to think about when you put them on. If you remember.
    In my family, those baggy bloomers never come off, not even when bathing. (That's weird too.)
    Last edited by 1hole; 03-11-2020 at 10:27 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    The early church fathers and men like Wycliffe, Tyndale, Martin Luther and John Knox (one of my personal favorites) defended sound doctrine with their blood, sweat and tears, and sometimes even their lives.

    No, I don't have to tolerate bad doctrine and bad theology.

    If that makes me a bigot, so be it. And if, by God's grace and mercy, this lack of tolerance should put me in the company of men such as those I have mentioned above, what a glorious day that would be!

    exile
    Not all bigotry is equal. If your intolerance just manifests as disassociation from those who express what you consider bad doctrine or bad theology, not so evil. If your intolerance goes to discrimination in hiring, customer service, renting a domicile or selling a house it is actually criminal. Of course you could consider that being punished for religious discrimination as being a martyr. There is a little leeway for religious exemptions for some customer services but you would be on thin ice if you refused to serve Muslims, Jews, LDS, and many others.

    You seem to have tolerated my doctrine and theology. Tolerated at least to the point of participating in this discussion. You don't seem like an evil bigot.

    Tim
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Not all bigotry is equal. If your intolerance just manifests as disassociation from those who express what you consider bad doctrine or bad theology, not so evil. If your intolerance goes to discrimination in hiring, customer service, renting a domicile or selling a house it is actually criminal. Of course you could consider that being punished for religious discrimination as being a martyr. There is a little leeway for religious exemptions for some customer services but you would be on thin ice if you refused to serve Muslims, Jews, LDS, and many others.

    You seem to have tolerated my doctrine and theology. Tolerated at least to the point of participating in this discussion. You don't seem like an evil bigot.

    Tim
    I apologize for my rudeness, which is why I deleted my post. In my view, Christians should not discriminate against others who violate the tenants of the Christian faith, rather they should be willing to suffer for the faith themselves as Christ did. I know, easy to say, hard to do.

    These things are very dear to me, which is why I sometimes respond as I do.

    exile
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Not all bigotry is equal. If your intolerance just manifests as disassociation from those who express what you consider bad doctrine or bad theology, not so evil. If your intolerance goes to discrimination in hiring, customer service, renting a domicile or selling a house it is actually criminal. Of course you could consider that being punished for religious discrimination as being a martyr. There is a little leeway for religious exemptions for some customer services but you would be on thin ice if you refused to serve Muslims, Jews, LDS, and many others.

    You seem to have tolerated my doctrine and theology. Tolerated at least to the point of participating in this discussion. You don't seem like an evil bigot.

    Tim
    In my family, those baggy bloomers never come off, not even when bathing. (That's weird too.)

    What in the heck?

    No where anywhere dose it say that.

    That's idoitic. As I said before some people have to take things one step to far.


    As for the afterlife. I didn't say oblivion. I said outerdarkness.

    Outside the light of all creation.

    And that is only for those who actually meet God. Understand him and his plan. And reject it.

    Joseph also stated if you were to glimpse the lowest level of heaven. You kill yourself to get thier.

    Now let me go outside of lds teachings

    I personally fully think there is work waiting for us when move to the next life. If you think you get to eat mana biscuits and drink ambrosia all day and sit on the couch watching football I think your in for a rude awaking.

    Some one will have to run the prison computer system.

    I'm going to be a sysadmin on the 9th tier of hell forever troubleshooting defunct buggy code.








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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    ….Well, in all fairness, the KJV was the only English Bible around in the early 1,700s so the fact Joe used it carries no special weight to me.....
    Not so, where do you get your ideas?


    The first Roman Catholic English translation was the Rheims-Douay, so named for the location of the Catholic college under the auspices of which it was produced. The seminary was founded at Douay, Spain, in 1568 “for the training of priests who were to win England back to the Catholic faith” (John Eadie, History of the English Bible, II, p. 114). In 1578, it was moved to Rheims, France, and it was here that the New Testament was completed in 1582. The school was moved back to Douay in 1593, where the Old Testament was completed some fifteen years later, in 1609-10.

    https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/th...ish_bible.html

    These were published before the KJV.

    There were Catholics in the American Colonies and you can be sure they were not using the KKV bible.

    "Catholicism was introduced to the English colonies in 1634 with the founding of the Province of Maryland by Cecil Calvert, 2nd Baron Baltimore, based on a charter granted to his father George Calvert, 1st Baron Baltimore. The first settlers were accompanied by two Jesuit missionaries travelling as gentlemen adventurers."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol...rteen_Colonies

    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 03-12-2020 at 01:04 AM.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    I apologize for my rudeness, which is why I deleted my post. In my view, Christians should not discriminate against others who violate the tenants of the Christian faith, rather they should be willing to suffer for the faith themselves as Christ did. I know, easy to say, hard to do.

    These things are very dear to me, which is why I sometimes respond as I do.

    exile
    You have my respect and admiration. I did not find your post rude but maybe so others did and it takes a big man to walk back a heartfelt response like yours. Modeling Jesus' modesty becomes you. Thanks.

    I hope if I was in your situation, I would do as you did.

    Tim
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  18. #38
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    Nice of you to say Tim, thank you. A teacher once told me that I needed to learn to be more diplomatic. Obviously, I am still working on that.

    exile
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  19. #39
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    Self righteous people who leap to chastise others for failure to be totally "tolerant" even of serious religious error and like to speak of Jesus' daydreamed sweetness and gentleness are delusional.

    Jesus was indeed gentle ... with gentle people. But, we know that even in his "gentle sweetness" he literally whipped out the temple's money changers and in his supposed religious tolerance he called the religious establishment "whitewashed tombs" and "vipers" to their faces. (It's no wonder so many of them wanted to kill Jesus for his insufficient Christian tolerance! )


    A Note on the Mormon Joe Smith's KJV Bible Choice:

    I doubt there were many Catholic Bibles lying on kitchen tables in rural western New York in Joe Smith's day (early 1,700s) but I'm quite sure there were many copies of the KJV and we know that's what he used, at least to the degree he used any Bible at all. Of course anyone who seriously wants to think Joe might have chosen to use a Catholic Rheims-Douay is welcome to that idea.

    Either way, the real issue is, Joe chose to say the English speaking Bible was/is accurate only where he felt it was "rightly translated." That may not sound too bad until you realise what he meant; that being anything HE said was superior to scripture! Understand that; in plain words, Joe was saying the Bible is meaningless unless he agrees with it! I grew up under strong LDS influence but I did, and still do, find that idea abhorrent.

    Joe Smith is said to have been illiterate. After finding his "golden plates" book buried under a tree stump he said it was written in Reformed Egyptian ... but there is no record of such a language! He also said no one but he could see the plates and only he had a magic "Seer Stone", that being a small rock which was said to help him find buried treasure. Only he could see and read the plates through the solid rock (kept inside his hat no less!) and the Stone magically translated the supposed Reformed Egyptian writing plates into English illeterate Joe could then "read". Joe dictated the looooong book to an assisting transcriber (who never saw the stack of golden plates himself, nor did anyone else) who carefully recorded Joe's words; then, voila, they had "the latter day Saints' holy book of Mormon" on paper!


    I believe anyone wanting to be more like the real Jesus of the Bible may rightly choose to strongly disagree with ol' Joe. ??

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Self righteous people who leap to chastise others for failure to be totally "tolerant" even of serious religious error and like to speak of Jesus' daydreamed sweetness and gentleness are delusional.

    Jesus was indeed gentle ... with gentle people. But, we know that even in his "gentle sweetness" he literally whipped out the temple's money changers and in his supposed religious tolerance he called the religious establishment "whitewashed tombs" and "vipers" to their faces. (It's no wonder so many of them wanted to kill Jesus for his insufficient Christian tolerance! )


    A Note on the Mormon Joe Smith's KJV Bible Choice:

    I doubt there were many Catholic Bibles lying on kitchen tables in rural western New York in Joe Smith's day (early 1,700s) but I'm quite sure there were many copies of the KJV and we know that's what he used, at least to the degree he used any Bible at all. Of course anyone who seriously wants to think Joe might have chosen to use a Catholic Rheims-Douay is welcome to that idea.

    Either way, the real issue is, Joe chose to say the English speaking Bible was/is accurate only where he felt it was "rightly translated." That may not sound too bad until you realise what he meant; that being anything HE said was superior to scripture! Understand that; in plain words, Joe was saying the Bible is meaningless unless he agrees with it! I grew up under strong LDS influence but I did, and still do, find that idea abhorrent.

    Joe Smith is said to have been illiterate. After finding his "golden plates" book buried under a tree stump he said it was written in Reformed Egyptian ... but there is no record of such a language! He also said no one but he could see the plates and only he had a magic "Seer Stone", that being a small rock which was said to help him find buried treasure. Only he could see and read the plates through the solid rock (kept inside his hat no less!) and the Stone magically translated the supposed Reformed Egyptian writing plates into English illeterate Joe could then "read". Joe dictated the looooong book to an assisting transcriber (who never saw the stack of golden plates himself, nor did anyone else) who carefully recorded Joe's words; then, voila, they had "the latter day Saints' holy book of Mormon" on paper!


    I believe anyone wanting to be more like the real Jesus of the Bible may rightly choose to strongly disagree with ol' Joe. ??
    I am going to stop being so literal when reading what you say and I am going to understand that you don't read my writing literally. You read and write for sentiment not precision.

    This for instance "the KJV was the only English Bible around in the early 1,700s" it seems you did not mean "only" you meant almost only. Since I corrected you, replied I like I was disputing more that simple exaggeration.

    Regarding Joseph Smith's teachings, It seems his followers have accepted much this seems to not be provable.

    Many churches it would seem, depend on peer pressure to keep people from questioning their obviously weak doctrine of miracles.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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