XXXXtype alloy?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lightman, you have been helpful and it's appreciated.

Figure after a test run and I work out proportions I figure I can then melt it all and pour it into manageable sizes ingots. 1st thing I need to do is get a gram scale to weigh this out.

I would melt it all together, BEFORE you run a test.
I believe that we can't precisely correlate a specific mix to Monotype and/or Foundry type. Any previous attempts to do so, are just anecdotal, at best.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post1286889

Copied from Fritz D, Post 17

"Foundry type has a harder alloy . . . the nick and the foot groove pattern differs from Font to Font and Foundry to Foundry. Monotype has a nick in the same position, the foot is always the same . . . the alloy is softer than foundry."

"The difference (separate from the faces available on Monotype vs foundry) is in the composition of the metal. Typical foundry metal is harder (on the Brinnell scale). Note that Monotype was actually available in three formulas of varying hardness depending on the type of job it was planned for. As to the visual difference, it is hard to tell unless the metal is newly melted and cast as all type oxidizes over time to varying degrees. Because of the higher degree of lead in the softer alloys they appear greyer and less shiny than the foundry metal which is higher in tin and antimony. Generally, when visually inspecting type, foundry type has a groomed foot or a groove on the bottom while Monotype cast type is flat on the bottom."

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3385929

copied from Andy, post 23

I know this thread is a few months old but I've been reading on this topic a good bit recently and hope I have something to add. I came into a bunch of single letter type recently and I'm trying to figure out what the composition of it all is. I've gone all over the internet and looked over my batch and here's what I've gathered:

- "Monotype" and "foundry" type were terms primarily used as marketing and not as an industry standard that equaled a certain composition. A reputable company would make sure their "foundry" type was harder than their "monotype" and a disreputable company would sell linotype composition blend as "foundry" type and give it the markings to look like foundry type. So, you can't trust any markings absolutely on their own.
- If you can ID the actual manufacturer (which is possible by the style of edge/bottom markings sometimes) you can fairly well be sure of what you have.
- The type in my batches that has "feet" at the bottom always seems to be shinier than the stuff without. I'm guessing that means better composition but I haven't tested for that theory.
- Any single letter type is pretty well guaranteed to at least be as good a composition as linotype, so you can figure that whenever you get it at linotype price you probably have gotten a good deal.
- It is pretty hard and probably not worth the effort to accurately sort out what type is what among the "foundry" "monotype" class. I would agree with everyone else that the thing to do is just melt it all in a batch and infer composition based on brinell hardness or get it tested if you have a big enough batch to make it worthwhile.
- I see a lot of people complain that they got an alloy batch tested with the xrf scanner thing and the results are known to be incorrect (i.e. known linotype or better reads as pure lead on a scanner etc). I don't have personal experience with this but it somewhat turned me away from the idea of having it tested unless I can get it done free or very inexpensively.

Hope this is useful for someone. I'm just getting into this stuff so take everything I've said with a grain of salt, certainly could be wrong on a thing or two.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2278049

Copied from GLL, post 8

One problem identifying "monotype" as simply those blocks of single letters was recently brought to my attention by two old guys in our college print shop. The facility runs a linotype machine as well as ultra-modern presses. They pointed out that in their shop all of the single letters of "monotype" are actually of standard linotype composition and they order it that way. They
have just one alloy to worry about in the entire room and stock stacks of linotype pigs for the machine.

These guys gave me a handful of the "monotype" letters and said to melt them. Sure enough they melted at 460 degrees and made a perfect eutectic cooling graph when I plotted temp vs. time !

Subsequently two other elderly printers have indicated they know of other shops that did the same thing years ago.

Jerry

[454PB]

Here's a picture of some of my stash, includes linotype, monotype, and some of the copper spacers in the mix. I was given about a ton of this many years ago. Some was simply mixed together for alloying with pure, some is still in the forms I received.

[redhawk0]

Huh, based on what I'd read, I would have called that monotype.

Did your printer friend have his own working Linotype machine, or did he buy fonts from a foundry and composit his own pages to print in his own press?

I'll be honest...I don't remember much about his shop (20 years ago). He called me over one day to pick up the 350#. I melted it all down and poured it into ingots...and I've been treating it as Linotype when mixing alloys. Looking at the pic that 454PB just posted....some of the single letters look like what I had...if that is Monotype...then it all got mixed in during "the smelt"....Since Ray referred to it as Linotype...I just took him at his word that it was all Lino.

redhawk

[kmw1954]

I would melt it all together, BEFORE you run a test.
I believe that we can't precisely correlate a specific mix to Monotype and/or Foundry type. Any previous attempts to do so, are just anecdotal, at best.

Jon, 2 of the quotes are Listed differently but are exactly the same and 2 of the links go to the exact same page. So something got lost in translation. The one thing I did note is in the link Type Metal, http://letterpressprinting.com.au/page40.htm and that their Chart of Physical Properties is once again different from others I have seen.

So exactly what does melting it all together accomplish other than making it into one alloy with one hardness for the lot? I am not trying to determine the composition of this stuff or to come up with an exact recipe or specific alloy. I am just looking to come up with a relative proportion to achieve a suitable hardness.

Right now the range scrap I have is pretty soft and drops bullets that are really heavy so part of my goal is not only to harden my alloy but to lighten it as well.

So by not melting it all together I can take a measured weight of this range scrap and proportionately add small exact amounts of this alloy to it then achieve a hardness reading and then know if I need to go harder or softer.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Jon, 2 of the quotes are Listed differently but are exactly the same and 2 of the links go to the exact same page. So something got lost in translation. The one thing I did note is in the link Type Metal, http://letterpressprinting.com.au/page40.htm and that their Chart of Physical Properties is once again different from others I have seen.

So exactly what does melting it all together accomplish other than making it into one alloy with one hardness for the lot? I am not trying to determine the composition of this stuff or to come up with an exact recipe or specific alloy. I am just looking to come up with a relative proportion to achieve a suitable hardness.

Right now the range scrap I have is pretty soft and drops bullets that are really heavy so part of my goal is not only to harden my alloy but to lighten it as well.

So by not melting it all together I can take a measured weight of this range scrap and proportionately add small exact amounts of this alloy to it then achieve a hardness reading and then know if I need to go harder or softer.

Oops,,,
I fixed the one link and the one quote.

The reason to blend you batch is...if you have some hardness discrepancies between some of your type blocks, you won't end up with a discrepancy from your first test and the end result when you blend the rest after the test.

But honestly, it doesn't really matter that much, in regards to most shooting that us castboolit shooters do. I just find it interesting to know all the details of stuff like this. Take whatever you feel you need, that's posted in this thread and mix away.

[kmw1954]

You are so right, this is pretty much voodoo science when dealing with such unknowns as we do. I'm really just looking for a starting point, a jumping off the cliff point. The more I am thinking about this and going thru the process, the actual makeup doesn't matter or mean a thing it's the ending point.

I think everyone can agree that there are 3 basic makeups of type, which we have been discussing, and that the composition of these types varies greatly depending on the original source. I most likely will end up melting and mixing 2 or three batches before I'm done and then I will melt it all together and pour into small ingots and then start alloying the two together.

The real humorous part of all this is I used to hate science and chemistry in HS.

[44magLeo]

You have 15 lbs. of this stuff, right? If so I would run what's in my pot out. Melt that 15 lbs. down in the pot. I have a Lee ingot mold. Using just the two center 1/2 size ingots, run that stuff out into ingots.
This will give you 30 some 1/2 lb. ingots. An easy size for mixing with.
Perhaps I would send one of these ingots to the guy on here that X-rays lead to get an exact composition of what you have.
This way you know just what you have.
Then mix from there.
Leo

[kmw1954]

Picked up a small scale tonight and then weighed out 1115 grams of the range scrap and then weighed out 112 grams of this type and melted it in my small SS pan on the hot plate and observed that the type melted at a much lower temp than the lead ingots. This poured out into 2.5 muffin ingots and are cooling now. So I will try to hardness test them with the pencil method tomorrow and then I will set them aside and recheck in a week and then 2 weeks.

Stay tuned!

[kevin c]

Haha! That quote that JonB put up from Fritz D is him quoting the reply to his inquiries on the printing forums I mentioned. He is the CastBoolits member whose friend on the printing forums asked for him about the differentiating characteristics between mono and foundry type. How ridiculously circular.

Back on topic. For personal use, I second JonB's suggestion to consolidate the type into one combined melt so you have just one enrichment alloy that will give you consistent results. Unless you are like me, both OC in organization and not unwilling to do the math, the hassle of keeping straight a lot of lots of different type and then doing new calculations for each batch, it's just easier. It can also be exact at the cost of a pound of any lead and a BB sized sample of the mix sent to BNE, who will send back an XRF analysis that tells you exactly what you have.

But I also will admit that it can be fun to do it empirically. It can be just as useful, provided you are confident that the type you have is consistent in content.

[kmw1954]

Kevin c this is why I used the VooDoo magic chemistry reference. I do not have a lot of this range scrap and there is no telling what the makeup of the next batch will be. So again this is just to find a starting reference point to build on. Same goes with this type, there is only 15lbs of this so it may go fast and then I'll have to start over. Though again once I get a starting point established I will melt the remainder as one batch and get a hardness.

[Fritz D]

Haha! That quote that JonB put up from Fritz D is him quoting the reply to his inquiries on the printing forums I mentioned. He is the CastBoolits member whose friend on the printing forums asked for him about the differentiating characteristics between mono and foundry type. How ridiculously circular.

Hey kevin c, are you saying I'm fat??

[kmw1954]

This just got more interesting. Dropped those slugs from they mold and hit them with a #HB and a 2 medium pencil and both pencils scratched easily. So at a mix of 10:1 with this range scrap it is still pretty soft. Finally found a place close by that stocks the 12pc Art Pencils so I will be running there shortly. Also just weighed out 454 grams and am melting this down now.

[earlmck]

What I'd do if I had material that could be either foundry type or monotype is this. I'd cast up a boolit or two from a favorite mold and give it the "smash" test. Monotype, although really hard, should pound into a misshapen form. Foundry type should just shatter (really brittle stuff).

[kmw1954]

What I'd do if I had material that could be either foundry type or monotype is this. I'd cast up a boolit or two from a favorite mold and give it the "smash" test. Monotype, although really hard, should pound into a misshapen form. Foundry type should just shatter (really brittle stuff).

I may just have to give tat test a go also. Thanks!

[Green Frog]

I’ve inherited about 50-100 lb or more of some kind of large, single letter type and they’re occupying space in the basement. I haven’t paid much attention to them for years, but I think the letters have the grooves, making them foundry type, right? I’m thinking that if I throw one of these large letters, each of which weighs several oz, into a Lee pot (20#) full of clip on wheel weights, I’ll add a significant amount of tin as well as a bonus amount of antimony to harden my alloy a bit. This should give me a good mix for revolver bullets driven medium fast, harder than COWW, but still soft enough to be sized and to obturate in the bore. That will finally gave me something to do with this pile of old letters!

Froggie

[lightman]

I’ve inherited about 50-100 lb or more of some kind of large, single letter type and they’re occupying space in the basement. I haven’t paid much attention to them for years, but I think the letters have the grooves, making them foundry type, right? I’m thinking that if I throw one of these large letters, each of which weighs several oz, into a Lee pot (20#) full of clip on wheel weights, I’ll add a significant amount of tin as well as a bonus amount of antimony to harden my alloy a bit. This should give me a good mix for revolver bullets driven medium fast, harder than COWW, but still soft enough to be sized and to obturate in the bore. That will finally gave me something to do with this pile of old letters!

Froggie

I have three 5 gallon buckets of mixed type that I have had for years. Like 40 years or more. I guess I should do something with it but I have more than a lifetime supply of wheel weights and a pretty large quantity of isotope lead. I though about smelting it all together and blending it with soft lead, which I also have a good supply of, but I just don't need the alloy and its worth more in its original form.

Its hard knowing when to start getting rid of stuff, and accepting the idea that it may be time!

[kmw1954]

I just finished replying to another thread similar to this one were I broke down approximately what I have and how much and it finally struck me that just how fast I could burn thru this while loading for 2 of us shooting 45acp. At 210gr ea. a 100lb lot will not last long. I really need to find a more reliable source.

For us new casters in many areas WW are becoming extinct, which leave range scrap as the new main source I guess. The stuff I've rendered is very soft so adding alloy will help. So if it were me I would be hanging on to at least a small portion. Interested to see how far this 15lbs. that I have goes.

[44magLeo]

In my last lead purchase I got 25 lbs. of bar solder. Some was 40-60 some was 50-50. I had about 4.5 lbs. from another purchase a few years ago.
I just cleaned the pot so I took and melted these bars and what I had in the pot. From a full pot I got about 24 1/2 size ingots. I got three full pots and one partial. The partial came out with about 7 ingots. Then used equal amounts from each pot full to refill the pot and pour more ingots. After this blending it should all be the same mixture.
It came out to 29.5 lbs. as weighed on my bathroom scale. There are 79 ingots That comes out to and average of bout 5.9 ounces per ingot.
This gives me an easy amount in each ingot for mixing.
I have been using straight COWW for years without any problems. With this solder I can try mixing COWW with Pure lead at 50-50 mix then add enough on these solder ingots to get me 2% tin.
I'll try a small amount to see how it casts. If it worms I may mix up a larger batch.
I was a bit surprised it melted at a much lower temp than WW's do. At temp just high enough to keep the solder liquid and pouring through the spout was about 575-580* F. At the bottom of the pot when I drained it for cleaning the last bit in the pot only filled the Lyman ingot about 3/16 inch deep. I tried throwing this in the mix just to get rid of this odd bit.
I usually cast WW's at about 700*F
After the rest was melted this thin ingot just lay in the bottom of the pot. It wouldn't melt.
From this I think a mix with a bit of tin will melt at a bit lower temp. How this will effect the way I cast will be interesting.
Leo

[kmw1954]

Latest update;
Finished rendering that latest bucket of range scrap and from a 65lb bucket I netted 33 lbs. of ingots. While doing that I also tried the pencil test on the other ingots I have and must be doing something wrong because my COWW came out harder than the range scrap and on the other postings it looks like it should be the other way around. The letter type I melted into an ingot not even the H4 pencil would scratch it. Thinking I might still look into a Lee Hardness tester.

The test I did with the range scrap and the 10:1 print type also came up with "B".

[dondiego]

COWW can easily be harder than range scrap. It just depends on the most common bullet type used at the range.