1884 Trapdoor and the Lee 459-405 HB boolit. A question about lubing.

[bedbugbilly]

Last year I “thought” I had a 45/70 Springfield Trapdoor rifle purchased from a member here and then the guy starting throwing in all kinds of roadblocks – price raised, had to be shipped FFL (which it didn’t need to), etc. so I walked away from it after he said he would rather I drive too Kalifornia and pick it up (from Arizona). So . . . . I kept looking and bought one from another member here. It’s a Model 1884 – made in 1890. The purchase was a good experience and the seller said that he hadn’t shot it much but when her first got it, after firing a few, he noticed there was something wrong with the chamber and the brass showed it. My guess is that it may have been pitted. He had Bobby Hoyt sleeve the chamber and I know Bob Hoyt’s reputation from my N-SSA days so know it was done right. The bore is decent so it should be a good shooter for what I want it for.

A while back, I bought a set of dies from another member who was getting out of shooting the 45/70. A set of 5 dies which included one set up for compressing loads and several different expanding dies, etc. It was a good excuse for looking for a 45-70. 

So, my question revolves around loading. I several different molds – but am going to start with the Lee 459-405 HB. I plan to load this in 45-70 and 45-55 (carbine) loads (or as close as possible). I have 1X fired Winchester brass that I FL sized to start with and I am hoping that after the initial firing, I can just reload with the boolit and put a slight taper crimp to hold it in place. If not, I can neck size and I have a good set of graduated sizes of NOE expander plugs to get the right neck tension if necessary. After the holidays, I plan on getting started – hae 2F and 3F Goex. Once I get things worked out on those two loads, I’ll be making a set of dowel “plug gauges” to check the compressed powder column height and I plan to use a .125 over the powder card so I will make a gauge to check that as well. Of course the seated boolit will determine the actual grains in the powder charge. I also have a fiber wad to use when loading the 55 grain (carbine) load. And yes, I do have J.S. & Pat Wolf’s book and am slowly making my way through it. For lube, I will be using what I have for years for my rifled muskets – a mixture of Crisco, pure beeswax and olive oil – ratios gauged by the stiffness. The Lee 459-405 will be loaded as “dropped”.

So, my question is actualy a simple one that I have been wondering about. I know some use lube cakes but I have never been a fan of them. In my BP pistol cartriges my boolit lube grooves seem to be sufficient. I plan on finger-lubing the lube grooves of the Lee HB 405 grain, but my question revolves around the hollow base. In reading a post by Larry Gibson quite a while ago, the boolit was discussed and the hollow base of the 45-70 boolit was supposed to provide “stability” during flight. I have shot rifled musket for almost 60 years now and on a hollow base minie ball, I have never lubed the lube grooves but rather just smeared lube into the hollow base – did it for years when shooting N-SSA as well. Now a hollow base minie ball is different than the 45-70 boolit with a hollow base – we all know that as the skirt of the minie expands into the rifling and the skirt of a 45-70 hollow base boolit is much thicker as it is to provide stability. BUT . . . does anyone who uses the Lee 459-405 hollow base boolit ever lube the hollow base as well as the lube grooves? Would it be a "help" or a "hindrance"? My thoughts are that it would be not much different than using a lube cake under the boolit – and even if loaded over a .125 over the powder card – or a fiber wad – by the time it leaves the muzzle, the friction of the boolit traveling through the bore and the corresponding heat would melt the lube in the base of the boolit and it be distributed throughout the bore to keep fouling soft?

I have never seen anything mentioned about it on here and if I have missed it, I apologize. It may (or may not) be addressed in Wolf’s book and I just haven’t gotten to it yet.

I know that the only way to find out is to try it, but I’m just curious if anyone here makes it a habit to lube the hollow base of the Lee boolit?

Thanks.

[Larry Gibson]

"In reading a post by Larry Gibson quite a while ago, the boolit was discussed and the hollow base of the 45-70 boolit was supposed to provide “stability” during flight."

I don't think I ever indicated the "hollow base" was to provide "stability" in flight. Fact is it is not a hollow base at in the hollow based Minie' type ML bullets. The Lee bullet is a duplication of the M1873 bullet. It was designed by Spence Wolf for Lee. The "hollow base" is actually a "dished cavity " as per the original arsenal platte drawings. The intent of the "dish" is to preserve the exterior dimensions of the bullet and while keeping the bullet weigh consistent at 405 gr regardless of the alloy used. If you note the skirt of the Lee bullet is is way to thick to expand as a Minie' skirt is intended to do.

From the manual;

Attachment 293498

I do not put lube in the dish cavity of the Lee bullet. There is no need as the lube groove carry sufficient lube.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I just shot my first black powder group with that Lee boolit. Was lubed with the simple lube recipie, 50 grains of Swiss 2F with a tuft of dryer lint for tamping. Got a nice group with the irons at 50 yards off the roof of the car. Fired a total of 8 rounds of black with that boolit and lube. No crusty fouling or lead but a good coat of lube in the bore. The cluster on the top is 4 rounds, the ones below are off hand .357 out of my 786
. I think that I need to switch lubes for a dedicated BP lube with crisco or olive oil so that it is softer in the bore and easier to swab out.

[omgb]

I shoot this bullet in the Trapdoor 45-70 and in my Sharps 45-90. I have found that putting lube in the base increases flyers. I use an over powder wad cut from paper or plastic milk cartons and I use SPG. I've made my own lube but SPG is very good, cheap enough and it works so why mess around. The lube grooves carry plenty of lube so no grease cookie is required.

[varsity07840]

Although I've never shot completion, I've been shooting original rifle muskets for 20 years and I have always lubed the grooves, never the base. IMHO, a lubed base contaminates the powder. As far as the Lee 405 goes, I never had any luck with it since the best could get it to cast was .460 and my '88 TD needs a .464. So, any way you lube it may not make much of a difference if it's too small. I shoot a 500gr. Government .464 cast from an Accurate mould with excellent accuracy.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

My rifle is newer ( Henry single shot ) and I size to .457" Have not had any leading issues with BP or smokeless. But I learned a lesson today about lube. What works for smokeless is not good for BP. The smokeless lube stiffened up in the bore. Not sure what it is about the BP that causes this but I will do a batch of Emert's or 50/50 beeswax and olive oil so the lube and fouling can be pushed out easily.

[indian joe]

The LEE 405 is a good boolit - nice big lube grooves - dont need a grease cookie - Varsity is right .460 is the size it drops - you might wanna slug the bore of your rifle and see what you have . I read the same story about the HB stabilising the boolit design - I dunno - I did away with the HB on my mold and clipped an equal amount off the nose and it shoots just fine as a plain base slug. Problem with the HB is card wads occasionally will tend to get stuck in the base.
Pan lube it and wipe the base clean works for me - I dont want any lube in direct contact with the powder.

[omgb]

OK, I've been doing this since the late 1970s so here's my take. First, the only lube that will work with BP is a lube WITHOUT petroleum products in it. The sulfur in BP combines with the petroleum base to form a rock hard tar. The best BP lubes are animal/vegetable based. I use any of the following: White Lightening (best hot, dry weather lube ever) SPG and a home spun mix of bees wax, olive oil and lanolin. The nice thing about any of these lubes, is they work for just about any pistol cartridge up to about 1500 fps, after which they begin to fail.

Now, the next thing you need to do is study Wolfe's book, religiously. If you load exactly as he directs, your old TD will shoot just fine. Don't worry about your bore size. TD bores were all over the place. A proper lead-tin bullet will bump up under BP firing and seal the bore, HB or FB, it won't matter. Lead/tin alloys behave like liquids under pressure and flow until they meet resistance. The back end of your bullet will expand outward on ignition as the front end of the slug attempts to stay stationary. A bullet of .459 will easily fill groves of .463 or more.

Don't put lube in the hollow base but do fill all of the lube grooves. Then follow Wolfe's directions. I promise you; it will work.

Remember, no petroleum lubes and that includes paraffin. You can add a crayon for color but just a bit. That's my take.
Reece

[Ecramer]

I almost hesitate to comment when experts like Mr. Gibson are here (greatly enjoy your comments, sir), but this is my modest contribution having shot the Lee bullet since the mid-1990s. I lube mine using a standard lubricizer (mine is a Redding). I size to 459 and my lube was originally a 50/50 mixture of beeswax and olive oil. This would be loose in warmer places, but was stable for deer hunting in Northern Missouri where I used it. Lately I've been using a recipe for home-made SPG lube that I found in the lube threads on this forum. I use 65 grains of FF Goex (until I run out of it), no wad, and a taper crimp. I took my first deer with this combination in 1997. I hope this information is useful.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Thank you omgb for the explanation of the sulfur acting on the petroleum products in conventional smokeless lubes. Also that the BP lubes with natural oils will work with most revolver rounds. I have lanolin and beeswax, crisco and olive oil on hand and can easily make a batch for some pan lubing. For now my lubrisizer will remain dedicated to smokeless lube which has worked well enough until I tried it with BP.

[Castaway]

omgb, good advice, but I take exception about your comments about paraffin. In general, petroleum products are a no-no, but at least in Gato Feo’s lube, paraffin is not a problem. All petroleum products aren’t equal. I use it for cap and ball revolvers and the fouling is goopy and have never fouled out a cylinder to the point it won’t rotate. Also use it in 45 Colts and 45-70 with equal success. Fouling is soft with all calibers and easily cleaned. I’ve never experienced a problem with it. Maybe in some combinations paraffin may cause a problem, but with beeswax and mutton tallow it’s hard to beat. Works well on medium smokeless loads also.

[omgb]

The other point I'd like to make is that an over powder wad usually really helps accuracy. Folks differ as to why but it seems to protect the bullet base from powder grains being driven into it and creating gas leaks or uneven pressure release when the slug leaves the bore.

As to paraffin...I hear what you are saying. None other than Paul Matthews liked a mix that contained Vaseline and paraffin. My experience is that it will work on cool days or in damp conditions but forms a hard crud when things get hot and dry. But...that's MY experience. I live in the desert of SoCal. Adding anhydrous lanolin to the lube helps to draw any available moisture out of the air and keep the fouling soft. At least, that's the science and...from my experience, it works so I use it.

[john.k]

Maybe not relevant here,but a hollow base or nose in a bullet does aid stability if the rifling twist is too slow..........this was commonly the case in military muzzle loaders converted to cartridge ,so the bullet had hollows plugged with some light material like wood ,or even wax.

[Castaway]

omgb, I’ve yet to experience dry/hot but in the wet/hot of Central Florida, it works. As an added bonus, GF#1 makes a great boot dubbing. I’ll never buy Sno-Seal again

[John Boy]

Bedbug … put a fiber wad at the base of the cupped bullet with no lube in it and pull the trigger
Read this article about bases and the reason why … with no mention of lubing them …
http://corbins.com/design.htm

[omgb]

Wolfe used a cupped base as did the original carbine load. I don't know all of Wolfe's reasoning. I've read his book several times, but he doesn't really elaborate on that issue. I will however opine on two factors I have historical knowledge of. First, a slight dish in the base will move the center of gravity ever so slightly forward. This will tend to make the bullet slightly more stable when spun at the same rate as the heavier rifle designed bullet. In essence, it does not require two different rifling rates to shoot: a decided plus for a cash-strapped procurement system in the west. Second is a point I have mentioned earlier. That dish, while not deep enough to be expanded by gas pressure, does as I said before, move the CG forward. This causes the rear of the bullet to accelerate faster than the nose. Thus, the lead is compressed and will bump up to fill over-sized grooves. Wolfe even says as much, and this attenuates the problems created by the various bore dimensions one encounters with TDs. Just be sure to use a bullet that is primarily lead at 20 or 30 to 1 with no antimony in it at all.

[Larry Gibson]

Spence Wolfe's reasoning for developing the loads used in his book was to replicate the original 1873 45-70 and 45-55 service loads, the original 1882 45-70 service loads along with other loads used in days of yore in the M1873,79 and M1884 rifles and carbines. Ergo the loads were developed to be like and give the same performance as the original service loads under range and field conditions of carry and use.

The Arsenals, both Frankford and Springfield, conducted many tests of the M1873 bullet in the 45-70 Springfield rifle. Initially the 45-55 carbine loads had a wad between the powder and bullet. It was found the wad was blown into the dish cavity and caused inaccuracy. It was soon deleted from the carbine load with the M1973 seated deeper to take up the space where the wad was.

There never was any lube put into the dish.

The belief back then was obturation (bump up) of the bullet to fit the groove diameter with the .459 diameter bullets in the .460+ groove diameter barrels it was found obturation was poor with the service 45-70 load and practically nonexistent with the 45-55 loads. This was especially the case with the 10-1 alloy used at the time for the M1873 bullet. Thus, the M1882 bullet was developed weighing 500 gr. The mass (additional weight) of that bullet does allow proper obturation, given the adopted 16-1 alloy used for that bullet, with the 45-70 load. The 405 gr M1873 bullet was retained for the 45-55 carbine load with the alloy changed to 16-1 also. However, we now know a 20-1 alloy is best for the 45-70 load, especially if less than 70 gr BP is used. I've found the 405 gr Lee M1973 bullet performs extremely well a 30-1 alloy in the 45-55 carbine load.

[Castaway]

There was a third configuration for the 45-55. One load used a cardboard type tube in the case. Don’t have the reference handy, but as I recall, it preceded the wads. But, as said, in the end a more deeply seated bullet was used without any wad. https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...ard-tube.7067/