I know that most of us here are Theists

[1hole]

I do understand there are some hardcore Christians who believe if I don’t put in the same effort as them then I should not or will not receive the same reward but in Gods eyes it doesn’t work that way.

Anyone who "believes" that is Biblical illiterate. Scriptue doesn't say it so anyone who does say it has no idea of what the Bible says.

Now, if by "the same reward" you mean entry in heaven is the same reward for everyone, yes, you're right. But, if you mean everyone obtains the same rewards IN heaven, you are wrong. There will be a great judgement day to reward those Christians who lived rightly and I believe those rewards will be significant.

In the most simplest of terms all one has to do is ask for our sins to be forgiven and accept him as our savior to be accepted by his side upon our death.

In the simplest terms, yes, that's "all" that's required to be eternally saved. But it's not quite that simple; that spoken profession of faith MUST be sincere, simply mouthing the words will accomplish nothing.

Where does the Bible indicate we must meet in a church on Sunday and give to the plate in order to believe in God, be forgiven for our sins and be accepted to heaven.

Book of Opinions, first chapter, first verse? (I believe Opinions is probably the most often quoted book in the Bible.

BUT, if you can't find it in YOUR Bible, forget all that nice to do stuff as opinionated nonsense because, so far as it goes for salvation, not one point on that list is in the Bible!.

Correct me if I’m wrong but when Jesus was wandering the deserts he spoke to his followers when the mood struck him at the location they occupied at that particular moment.

You're right but with a stipulation; for three years Jesus held a series of theology lessons for the apostles in the ways of an outdoor symanary. What He said was always important but remember it wasn't a formal "sabbath day church meeting" every time He opened his mouth so your time and location analogy is a bit off.

[1hole]

What is Religion? .... Doesn't say your not religious if you don't read the bible unless I missed that part.

Being Christian is good. Just being "religious" isn't automatically good. The scribes, Pharasees and Saducees of Jesus' day were quite religious; didn't do them any good tho. The teachings of today's Muslims, Hindus, Jehovah Witness, LDS, Christian Science, et al, are very religious but none of them are Christian so they won't be going to the Christian God's heaven.

Family and friends communicate. The Bible is the way our heavenly Father speaks to us, prayer is the way we speak to Him. We can be VERY religious without opening a Bible ... but not opening it suggests we don't much care what He says and that says a lot about our true beliefs.

[a danl]

There are too many comments to quote so I’ll just comment to all.

I do not believe anyone on this thread has indicated they do not believe in God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit but there are a few who believe that if one doesn’t swallow the Bible hook, line, and sinker then one doesn’t believe in God. I do understand there are some hardcore Christians who believe if I don’t put in the same effort as them then I should not or will not receive the same reward but in Gods eyes it doesn’t work that way. In the most simplest of terms all one has to do is ask for our sins to be forgiven and accept him as our savior to be accepted by his side upon our death.

So let me ask this one since I assume I am one of the “biblically illiterate” y’all speak of. Where does the Bible indicate we must meet in a church on Sunday and give to the plate in order to believe in God, be forgiven for our sins and be accepted to heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong but when Jesus was wandering the deserts he spoke to his followers when the mood struck him at the location they occupied at that particular moment.

it says do not forsake the assembling of yourselves . if one doesn't meet on sunday (the lord's day) to worship God then just when would someone take the time to worship God. i'd say "go ahead pick a time . i'll pick sunday because that is where christians meet and i want to be with them to fellowship and worship God together and to grow in Christ. how many other countries would love to have the privilege that we have just to be able to worship together without fear? the bible does not say one has to give in the plate to believe in God. one gives what he/she desires to give, it does talk about the cheerful giver. to find these things one must be in the word continually, it's all in there.

[Tazlaw]

I pray sometimes. After I pray I wonder why I am praying. God knows how I feel. Why should I be asking God to change things, who am I to make requests or even suggestions to God.

In the fourth post to this thread 1hole says he prays for my salvation. Somehow that just seems insulting, it does not seem heart felt. There is nothing wrong with him praying for me but the crowing about it, just does not seem right. I think he is just virtue signaling.

When people ask us to pray for them, I do. I guess, responding with a "prayers sent" might be reassuring to those who asked. There seems to be a dynamic to this that is as much social as it is religious.

Tim

Why pray? God knows how you feel (knows your needs)?

Let me ask-are you a father? I would assume you know the needs of your children (or your father knows the needs of you). Does that mean the child should not converse with the father? Since the needs are known is there a reason to even ask for something? I say yes there is a need. A need for communion, conversation, a sharing of good and bad events. A father feels good when he can give to his children, he feels even better when they thank him for the provisions. Jesus said “ask and ye shall receive.” I take every opportunity to speak with my father and with God.

As far as “praying for your salvation”, you should be honored and not insulted. Salvation is the single most important thing in life. No matter what you’ve done, do, or become matters if there is no salvation because there will be nothing left, nothing to carry on. By simply asking Christ to be your Lord and Savior you will secure you’re eternal life and everything will be given to you.

[dtknowles]

Why pray? God knows how you feel (knows your needs)?

Let me ask-are you a father? I would assume you know the needs of your children (or your father knows the needs of you). Does that mean the child should not converse with the father? Since the needs are known is there a reason to even ask for something? I say yes there is a need. A need for communion, conversation, a sharing of good and bad events. A father feels good when he can give to his children, he feels even better when they thank him for the provisions. Jesus said “ask and ye shall receive.” I take every opportunity to speak with my father and with God.

As far as “praying for your salvation”, you should be honored and not insulted. Salvation is the single most important thing in life. No matter what you’ve done, do, or become matters if there is no salvation because there will be nothing left, nothing to carry on. By simply asking Christ to be your Lord and Savior you will secure you’re eternal life and everything will be given to you.

Yes, I am a Father and no I don't know how my children feel or what they really need. I am not God, only God can see into people's minds and hearts with surety. I don't feel the relationship between God and Humans is a Father-Child relationship. That is a Christian idea. God is God and we are one of his many creations.

Tim

[No_1]

Did anyone make the claim you had to attend church or give in the offering to be saved? I don't remember reading that.

Nobody mentioned it on the thread, it was a question.

it says do not forsake the assembling of yourselves . if one doesn't meet on sunday (the lord's day) to worship God then just when would someone take the time to worship God. i'd say "go ahead pick a time . i'll pick sunday because that is where christians meet and i want to be with them to fellowship and worship God together and to grow in Christ. how many other countries would love to have the privilege that we have just to be able to worship together without fear? the bible does not say one has to give in the plate to believe in God. one gives what he/she desires to give, it does talk about the cheerful giver. to find these things one must be in the word continually, it's all in there.

Agreed, worship whenever the mood strikes.

Anyone who "believes" that is Biblical illiterate. Scriptue doesn't say it so anyone who does say it has no idea of what the Bible says.

Now, if by "the same reward" you mean entry in heaven is the same reward for everyone, yes, you're right. But, if you mean everyone obtains the same rewards IN heaven, you are wrong. There will be a great judgement day to reward those Christians who lived rightly and I believe those rewards will be significant.



In the simplest terms, yes, that's "all" that's required to be eternally saved. But it's not quite that simple; that spoken profession of faith MUST be sincere, simply mouthing the words will accomplish nothing.



Book of Opinions, first chapter, first verse? (I believe Opinions is probably the most often quoted book in the Bible.

BUT, if you can't find it in YOUR Bible, forget all that nice to do stuff as opinionated nonsense because, so far as it goes for salvation, not one point on that list is in the Bible!.



You're right but with a stipulation; for three years Jesus held a series of theology lessons for the apostles in the ways of an outdoor symanary. What He said was always important but remember it wasn't a formal "sabbath day church meeting" every time He opened his mouth so your time and location analogy is a bit off.

Thanks for your response but I can't even wrap my head around the "Book of Opinions" as I have not seen nor read it.

[1hole]

Thanks for your response but I can't even wrap my head around the "Book of Opinions" as I have not seen nor read it.

It's joke my friend. A joke aimed at the many who say, "the Bible says .... " and then spout things the Bible does NOT say, just opinions of what they think it says or wish it said. And, by doing that, they make "opinions" the single most quoted (and the most outlandish) "book" of the Bible.

[popper]

After I pray I wonder why I am praying. First thing Tim has said that makes any sense. As the only thing he 'believes' is that a 'supreme being' created the earth (per Tim, not a miracle) and the 'supreme being' only acts on earth through 'natural' occurrences; who is there to pray to and what to pray for? Per Tim, what 'good' is God providing for the earth and us? Kung Flu? Earthquakes, pestilence? If those occur 'naturally' and God isn't going to do anything about them, yes, what good is 'prayer'?
Don't know Tim, never met him, just trying to get him to see his mistake. His opinion is that a super-being is out there chuckling at our silliness.

[JohnChrysostom]

You've been insistent that no one even think you may be a Christian and you don't at all care what scripture says so I wonder why you pretend to care what Christians believe. I mean, you've consistently made it clear you don't believe anything we believe so why pose more questions simply to make a rhetorical platform for you to posture on; why not just write what you want the world to hear about what you think and be done with it?

Amen and a Theist is not a Christian and i see a lot of openly Christian users here, the OP is deluded lol

[dtknowles]

Amen and a Theist is not a Christian and i see a lot of openly Christian users here, the OP is deluded lol

All Christians are theists

NOUN
theists (plural noun)
a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

You are using the word wrong.

deism
NOUN
belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

atheist
NOUN
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Tim

[Blackwater]

DT, you so often ask questions that seem to reveal that you've never really given your life to Christ. You try to "reason it out" by virtue of the facilities in your head. But reason alone will never lead to understanding or accepting Christ. To come to Christ, one must use ALL the facilities that were given to us by God. Do you think that if we were created by God, that we would not have a tiny bit of that divinity within us, that always seeks the greater glory of the maker? Intuitively, for lack of a better word, we KNOW whence comes our salfation and grace. We just have to learn to understand that, and part of it lies within our power to reason, but that alone will never be enough to truly understand and accept Christ. Have you ever wondered why agnostics and atheists so often use reason alone to address the subject of God and Christ? It's because with that alone, one can never find the Lord, nor understand His ways. He is NOT like us. He is different, and very, very far beyond our meager existence on this earth. He is eternal and everlasting. That alone separates Him from us mere mortals. He is our literal and symbolic "Father," and the Father of all that is in our limited cosmos. Never will anyone understand or come to Christ using ONLY their minds. The mind us very useful, and I'd say required, in understanding Him and Salvation and so much more. And I believe Christ EXPECTS us to use our big brains in the pursuit of understanding Him and His ways. But to think that our ability to reason alone is sufficient to understand the Lord is pure folly, for it negates and neglects the whole of what God has given us to perceive Him and His ways. Only by using ALL our faculties can we ever hope to glean at least a glimmer or two of Him and His ways. And believe it or not, if we pray and diligently seek wisdom and understanding, He'll provide it to us. There are a number of questions I'd long pursued, but I approached them from the wrong perspective. Then one day, when I wasn't really thinking about anything, I had an epiphany, and God himself revealed the answers to me. And when He did, I was embarassed that the true answers were so simple, that they should have reached out and grabbed me! But that's the way it often is. We block out the answers that we really don't WANT to know - not really. Knowing might curb our behaviors that we so enjoy. It might make us look foolish, and in this day and age, looking foolish is a social "sin" of the highest order. But diligence and consistency can and will reveal the true answers to us .... but only if we're consistent and very diligent and serious about wanting the answers. I suspect that often, we don't find the true answers because we're quite satisfied to settle for some truism that lets us continue on our way as before, and doesn't change our lives significantly and permanently. But if we only knew how wonderful and satisfying it is to become a mature Christian, we'd be quite different than what we now are, for most of us. Belief is one thing. Attaining the grace of full commitment is quite another. You will never be so completely satisfied and "happy" as when you give your life completely to Christ, and follow His directions and advice to the very best of your ability. It is the most wonderful thing you'll ever experience, IF you allow yourself to experience it, and don't keep blocking His grace and understanding out and glossing over it.

But God gave us all a free will, and we can accept or reject His salvation at will, for whatever reasons we choose. It is sad to see those who reject His grace try to convince us who really know that they are "superior" to us because they deny what we all inwardly know is really true.

[1hole]

It is sad to see those who reject His grace try to convince us who really know that they are "superior" to us because they deny what we all inwardly know is really true.

Yep.

Smug atheist experts rarely learn anymore than they already know but don't understand about God. They can't afford to learn much about God; eddicated innerlecshuls admitting they're wrong about God would prove they aren't (and never were) the "know it alls" they want us "lesser beings" to believe.

Those who consider themselves too innerlecsul to believe in God would do well to read Josh McGowell's excellent book, EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT.

[dtknowles]

DT, you so often ask questions...….but God gave us all a free will, and we can accept or reject His salvation at will, for whatever reasons we choose. It is sad to see those who reject His grace try to convince us who really know that they are "superior" to us because they deny what we all inwardly know is really true.

Have I ever talked down to anyone here or belittled them like some have often belittled me?

Have I ever claimed that I am "superior" to anyone here?

Aren't you the one claiming to be "superior" when you say "us who really know," aren't you the one claiming "superior" knowledge.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Yep.

Smug atheist experts rarely learn anymore than they already know but don't understand about God. They can't afford to learn much about God; eddicated innerlecshuls admitting they're wrong about God would prove they aren't (and never were) the "know it alls" they want us "lesser beings" to believe.

Those who consider themselves too innerlecsul to believe in God would do well to read Josh McGowell's excellent book, EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT.

So you don't believe that I believe in God? If I don't believe in God they way you believe in God then you don't think I believe in God but the fact is there is but one God, the creator of all things.

Tim

[sharps4590]

Wow.....amazing.

[Blackwater]

Have I ever talked down to anyone here or belittled them like some have often belittled me?

Have I ever claimed that I am "superior" to anyone here?

Aren't you the one claiming to be "superior" when you say "us who really know," aren't you the one claiming "superior" knowledge.

Tim

Nope, but I can see how you'd see it that way. I have never put myself above or beyond anyone. Just defending my own personal beliefs. That's all. Why would you not expect that from those who think differently from you??? Your collection of this and that from various sources is a hodge podge of beliefs that suit you. They could never satisfy most people, who'd see them more naturally for what they are. You've said previously that you were brought up as a catholic. I don't know where you got your theology from, though. The catholic theology I read is perfectly acceptable to any segment of Christianity, except when it comes to a few of their ceremonies, and the concept of intercession, which I believe in, but don't limit it to Mother Mary.

You so often seem to be out to disprove what we "normal" Christians believe. That's been tried many, many times before, but more learned and capable people than anyone here among the disbelievers. I'm not worried in the least. I have my truths, that I've been fortunate enough to acquire, and which I regard as sufficient unto the day of judgment. Others have what they have, just as you have what you've chosen to have for yourself. The only way to know how effective each is, is to wait to judgment day, and see who gains admission into Heaven, and who's deemed unfit for entry. But that's a rather final and harsh way to find out, isn't it? That's why I believe that when God breathed the breath of life into man, He also breathed into us the certain knowledge, intuitively, of who made us and what we're to do here. But that's MY perception, and it doesn't necessarily have to be yours or anyone else's. You have to go your own way, but I have to think one should be very, very careful, lest they fall into belief of erroneous and possibly even evil thoughts. After all, Satan is real, and he's having a heyday in our times. I just wish you all the best.

[dtknowles]

Nope, but I can see how you'd see it that way. I have never put myself above or beyond anyone. Just defending my own personal beliefs. That's all. Why would you not expect that from those who think differently from you??? Your collection of this and that from various sources is a hodge podge of beliefs that suit you. They could never satisfy most people, who'd see them more naturally for what they are. You've said previously that you were brought up as a catholic. I don't know where you got your theology from, though. The catholic theology I read is perfectly acceptable to any segment of Christianity, except when it comes to a few of their ceremonies, and the concept of intercession, which I believe in, but don't limit it to Mother Mary.

You so often seem to be out to disprove what we "normal" Christians believe. That's been tried many, many times before, but more learned and capable people than anyone here among the disbelievers. I'm not worried in the least. I have my truths, that I've been fortunate enough to acquire, and which I regard as sufficient unto the day of judgment. Others have what they have, just as you have what you've chosen to have for yourself. The only way to know how effective each is, is to wait to judgment day, and see who gains admission into Heaven, and who's deemed unfit for entry. But that's a rather final and harsh way to find out, isn't it? That's why I believe that when God breathed the breath of life into man, He also breathed into us the certain knowledge, intuitively, of who made us and what we're to do here. But that's MY perception, and it doesn't necessarily have to be yours or anyone else's. You have to go your own way, but I have to think one should be very, very careful, lest they fall into belief of erroneous and possibly even evil thoughts. After all, Satan is real, and he's having a heyday in our times. I just wish you all the best.

I was brought up Catholic and rejected it and a lot of this discussion is by way of explaining why I rejected Catholicism and Christianity. Having rejected Catholicism and Christianity, I set about to understand what I believed and it led me to my current beliefs, my current Theology, which I enjoy discussing here.

If you go back years you and I have been talking about this on this site for a long time. I believe I understand where you stand but you still don't seem to grasp where I stand. I guess I just have not been clear.

You said "Your collection of this and that from various sources is a hodge podge of beliefs that suit you." That is correct. I hope to find the best ideas no matter where they come from. Do you believe that all wisdom comes from the Bible?

Tim

[sharps4590]

I was brought up Catholic and rejected it and a lot of this discussion is by way of explaining why I rejected Catholicism and Christianity. Having rejected Catholicism and Christianity, I set about to understand what I believed and it led me to my current beliefs, my current Theology, which I enjoy discussing here.



Tim

Which goes directly back to what I said on page 1. Whether knowingly or admittedly you have set yourself up as your own god. You have decided what you will believe, you aren't guided by anything other than the "hodge podge" mentioned by Blackwater. You ARE cherry picking any and everything to do with Christianity. You say you believe in God yet you demand that He meet your requirements, not the other way around.

There's been a lot of flat out lying about the Bible on this thread by those who think as the Muslims do, that it's been corrupted. Spurious sources have been mentioned to attempt to disprove the accuracy of the Bible. It's amusing that the more archaeology tries to disprove it, the more it is proven by archaeology.

[DCP]

Which goes directly back to what I said on page 1. Whether knowingly or admittedly you have set yourself up as your own god. You have decided what you will believe, you aren't guided by anything other than the "hodge podge" mentioned by Blackwater. You ARE cherry picking any and everything to do with Christianity. You say you believe in God yet you demand that He meet your requirements, not the other way around.

There's been a lot of flat out lying about the Bible on this thread by those who think as the Muslims do, that it's been corrupted. Spurious sources have been mentioned to attempt to disprove the accuracy of the Bible. It's amusing that the more archaeology tries to disprove it, the more it is proven by archaeology.

He has openly admitted that he is here trying to convert folks. That makes him a false prophet. This is a family site so why is it that he is given a soapbox to preach from? You cant curse or have a link with cursing in it. I find it ironic.

[1hole]

So you don't believe that I believe in God?

Tim

Oh, I think - in fact I know - you believe in A god but you obviously don't believe in God.

Not intending to be offensive to anyone but to say it straight out, I am a Bible trusting Christian who can readily understand how/why you came to reject the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and, from that, how you also came to reject Christianity but that's not a rational extension; the RCC is a religion all its own and simply does not accurately represent true and Biblical Christianity.

The sooner you accept the reality of the disconnect between the RCC and Christianity (and completely turn loose the understandable spiritual disappointments of your past) the sooner you can stop trying to invent an acceptable god and religion in your own image and actually seek God.