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Thread: Converted to nitro piston springer zero distance help

  1. #21
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    3B the target was a 10 yards.

    You need to get off the lead sled.

    With a springer you need to use an "Artillery Hold"

    You have the gun sitting on a front bag and maybe a rear bag as well if you have one. You hold the gun loosely so that it is free to move in a strait line forward and rearward under recoil. The Pellet is still in the barrel as it starts to move during recoil and as such anything you do to the gun while it is going thru it's firing cycle will affect where the pellet goes.

    I literally shot all my guns on top of a 6x6 with a towel on top of it for a rest. I had a loose cheek weld (enough to line up with the scope) and a light grip with the firing hand and didn't have the gun pulled tight against my shoulder. It was free to move about maybe 1/4-1/2" on its own.

    This is the way to impose the least amount of outside influence on the gun I have found. I got it off one of the Airgun Sites and it works..

    The whole point of the 10 yard zero is because the pellet will rise out to 20-25 yards and then start to drop back to zero at 40 yards. So theoretically your 23 yard zero would shoot high before 23 and low beyond it. But once again you'll never know for sure until you shoot the gun at the various distances and see exactly what it is doing with any given pellet. I recommend shooting a 5 shot group with each pellet style.

    Once you get all this sussed out you write down the results and take pics of the targets so we can see them and you won't have to do it again, and you'll know exactly what the gun will do.

    The R1 is the least accurate of all my guns. The HW35E (newest to me) is probably the most accurate, with the 35EB (first gun)next and then the .22 cal. HW77. None of them are slouches.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 02-23-2020 at 05:48 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I figured I’d get one of those “beanbag” type rests to shoot off of. I knew the lead sled definitely was not answer when shooting this gun. My best groups came with using a firm hold and pulling it back tightly onto my sled. Thanks for the tip. I’ll start looking for some Caldwell beanbags. I saw a saw a set I really liked a while back. I’m sure it will make the a lot gun steadier as well. At least I figured I’m in a good place to start and ordered another tin of 18.13 grain jsb pellets off Amazon. I wanted to at least get my rifle zeroed and find out what pellets group tighter than the other. I’m sure my gun will shoot tighter than what I did today by far. I just have to get used to shooting it properly. I bought the gun about 10 years ago but I’ve never really put the time in to shoot it.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 02-23-2020 at 07:05 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master bosterr's Avatar
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    W.R.Buchanan... To simulate shooting off hand like I would shooting yard varmints, I rest my rifle against the right side door jamb of my sunroom, standing with my right elbow resting on a step ladder and using the artillery hold. Certainly less than a dead rest, but when I shoot off bags with the artillery hold POI is 2 inches low and 1/2 inch to the right even though my groups are into one hole at 35 yds. Picking chipmunks off at 50 yds. is "usually" no problem using the "door jamb hold" but I'd still like to get more steady. Could you elaborate on your 6 X 6 method? I have some treated pieces of 6 X 6 laying around I can use. Do you slide the fore end ahead to put the trigger guard near the 6 X 6? Do you support the butt with a bag? Your fist?
    Last edited by bosterr; 02-25-2020 at 09:09 AM.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosterr View Post
    W.R.Buchanan... To simulate shooting off hand like I would shooting yard varmints, I rest my rifle against the right side door jamb of my sunroom, standing with my right elbow resting on a step ladder and using the artillery hold. Certainly less than a dead rest, but when I shoot off bags with the artillery hold POI is 2 inches low and 1/2 inch to the right even though my groups are into one hole at 35 yds. Picking chipmunks off at 50 yds. is "usually" no problem using the "door jamb hold" but I'd still like to get more steady. Could you elaborate on your 6 X 6 method? I have some treated pieces of 6 X 6 laying around I can use. Do you slide the fore end ahead to put the trigger guard near the 6 X 6? Do you support the butt with a bag? Your fist?
    Do you have a spring in your gun or is it piston driven? I hear “spring gun are hold sensitive. My rifle has a piston in it so from what I’ve read it’s more forgiving. My Browning 800 express 22 cal pistol is a springer but I believe with the recoiling spring built into the stock of it helps with not being hold sensitive as well.

    Bosterr, when I shot my rifle to test it the other day I has just a hair of creep/ travel before my trigger broke. Not bad at all. I would say less than 1/16 of an inch. Very livable. It either wasn’t noticeable when I tried it the other day or it “settled” in after a 100 rounds of shooting. It’s not enough that I will try to adjust it again.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 02-25-2020 at 10:40 AM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master bosterr's Avatar
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    Mine is a gas piston. I watched a video not long ago that shows the slow motion of the forward recoil of a gas piston gun. It's pretty significant going forward and much less to the rear but it's still pretty visible as well. I'd say since mine wants to shoot low off of 2 bags the angle of the butt stock when it recoils forward on the rear rabbit ear bag is raising the butt and lowering the muzzle is causing it to shoot low.

    After I adjusted the trigger last week to get it down to 18 oz. the creep that I thought would be ok is no longer ok. I adjusted some more creep out but it lowered the pull weight down to 14 oz. I'm leaving the creep that is in it now because that's my sear engagement? I can't feel it squeezing the trigger but I can see it when I watch.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I read about the second stage holding the sear as well. So I would assume some creep is is good/safe. I also was still scratching my head on why the 15 grain Diabolo heavies shot a large group compared to my jumbos and RS. I remember the heavies fit loose. I went on JBS’s website and it listed these pellets at 5.5” VS the jumbos and RS are 5.52” so the are like throwing a hotdog down a hallway in my gun. I ordered up a another box of 250 jumbos off amazon that will arrive today. If they packaged them like PyramydAir does I’ll order more as they were $12.73 with free shipping. I. Gong to try and accuracy test my browning express air pistol today if I have time will all my pellets. I know at 10 yards it stacks predator and rocket pellets but I want to see how it does at 23 yards like the rifle.

  7. #27
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    Are Crosman Premiers gone from the market? They always shot best in my Theoben Classic. It’s a gas ram design and is brutal to thin skirted pellets. Crow magnums were pitiful, an inch plus at 20 yards with some showing canting. Premiers are one hole at that distance. Shot into a bundle of plastic shopping bags showed why, the skirts were flared almost straight and the face was drawn to the side. Don’t know if the newer gas rams are as “sharp” as Theoben( Beeman Crow magnum rifle was a Theoben ) but if so thicker skirted pellets will generally do better if they are the right size. In my R9 the HN field target trophy is very good, also in my vintage blue streak.

    Oh, mine are mostly 5mm but a zero at 33 yards was about a half inch hi at 23 yards and on at 12 yards ,at least that’s memory, been a while. I hand hold and rest my left hand on a soft but firm rest and butt is in my shoulder. Any front rest I ever tried, or letting the butstock ride anything, caused the poi to vary when I was hunting or shooting offhand. I use my springers for offhand practice, if you can shoot a springer well offhand then a flintlock is easy! Made no difference if gas ram or steel spring, still lots happening before the pellet even moves, much less clears the bore.
    Last edited by rking22; 02-25-2020 at 08:11 PM.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  8. #28
    Boolit Master bosterr's Avatar
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    Crosman Premier are still available at Walmart and is what I started out with in my Hatsan Model 95 until I settled on H&N Field Target Trophy. The Premiers were very good and would be a cheap one to fall back on.

    I know I need to perfect my artillery hold and figure out what and where the contact points of the rifle must be.

  9. #29
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    I just searched, glad I payed in a stash of the old 1250 cnt cardboard box Premiers. They carried the die number and when you got the one that shot the best you knew what die and lot you wanted and I bought a lifetime supply. Need to get me some JSB to try in the Theoben, JSB,s shoot well in the FWB300 but I did not buy a bunch.
    As long as you can duplicate the hold from shot to shot, many variations work. Just that a little difference in grip and traction to recoil gives BIG changes in poi for the shot. That Theoben will not stay in 2 inches off a sandbag, but it will cut one ragged hole if I just hold the fore end and rest my hand on the bag. Grip consistent and don’t fight the recoil. Interesting to intentionally change, like a very tight pull back into the shoulder, then see a decent group but inches from the one held more relaxed. Fantastic accuracy, but not very easy to shoot well. Probably part of the fascination for me., and others I suspect.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I tried my browning 800 express 22 pistol right before dark. I tried predator, crow magnum, and rocket pellets at approx 15 yards if I had to guess. The predators grouped around 1 3/4” or more, the crow magnums were about the same. The rockets put three dead center in the 10x all in one hole and the other two shots landed about an inch away. I tried them again with about the same group results. I then tried the h&N terminators. They made one big tear that I would say was a half inch group give or take. I like that! A nasty little hunting pellet with a steel core. I then tried all three of my JSB match pellets. The tightest group was a little larger then the terminators with the 18.13 grainers. I was shooting a little high and left with the terminators so adjusted 4 clicks right and down. It was getting pretty dark and I couldn’t see the black dots very well I was aiming at with my tasco PDP2 red dot. The last. Four shots I took load two in the bulls in the same hole and one about a quarter inch low. I’ll resume Tomorrow in the daylight.

    I’ve been using the rockets and predator pellets in my backyard for small game and some times I do perfect head shots and then I’ll have a complete miss the next shot. I’ll make sure to zero it and start practicing with the terminators. Can’t wait to see how they do on small game.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 02-25-2020 at 09:28 PM.

  11. #31
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    I have no experience with either of those pellets, but found that the domed pellets were best for me. Seemed the flat nosed ones opened their groups at distance in a non linker manner. Only real failure I have had was a big fox squirrel at about 20 yards. 2 crow magnums from a PCP did not penetrate to the brain. Both flattened against the bone. He was knocked out, but took a knife to finish. Domed pellets have worked on like shots ever since. These running MV of 780 to 860fps in 5mm. Accuracy with penetration is you friend, in that order
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosterr View Post
    W.R.Buchanan... Could you elaborate on your 6 X 6 method? I have some treated pieces of 6 X 6 laying around I can use. Do you slide the fore end ahead to put the trigger guard near the 6 X 6? Do you support the butt with a bag? Your fist?
    Not too hard I just sit the 6x6 on the bench and put a towel on it. see Pics.

    It is close to being on target so I just lean on the gun a little to get the shot placement I want. Hand loosely around the end of the fore end to hold it steady.

    Side to side is just turning the gun side to side,,, and elevation is just leaning down on the butt to make vertical alignment. It is really close just sitting there. Very little tweaking to make the shot.

    You can see how the entire fore end is supported so it slides easily on the towel. The gun recoils freely fore and aft. This puts the least amount of "Human Influence" on the gun and allows it to do what it wants as the shot breaks.

    Randy

    Oh,,, I weighed that gun today,,, 10lbs on the nose. I told you it was heavy.
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 02-27-2020 at 08:40 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Randy! I tried your lay down rest method today. I laid my rifle down over my grille in the backyard with a thick grass floor mat on top of it. With the contour of the grille I was able to snug my gun all the way up to the trigger guard. I could leave my rifle sit on it I this way without any support. I was shooting at 100 yards to see if I could figure out mil dots. The base if my first mil dot hits about 1.5” low at 100 yards. Heres my story...



    I just figured out my tasco mil dot drops today. I have my gun zeroed at 23 yards with 18.13 grain JSBs. I set 2, 2 liters out at a 100/110 yards if I had to guess. I placed them in the middle of the woods in the background. I’ll use my range finder tomorrow to check the actual distance. I was zoomed to 10x in my tasco varminter and found the bottom of first mil dot and it hit about an inch and a half low at 100 yards! It sure doesn’t drop much. I turned the unopened PBR can side ways three times but it didn’t explode... the JSBs just sailed through it. I used two, 2 liters with water for larger aiming points to figure out where to aim first before wasting the beer. I also had a spotter with binoculars( the beer doner). After I figured out where I thought I needed to aim I put the base of my dot on the middle of a one inch lemon that was on the lemon lime 2 liter bottle and I hit about 1.5” below the lemon. I should have 100 yards figured out now. I caught a pellet in each water filled two liter. The rest sailed right through them. The PBR never stopped any of my pellets. I would assume there’s enough knockdown power for feathers at that distance and I’m guessing a headshot on a squirrel might put it down it I was accurate enough? I’ve got some more practicing to do before that’s going to happen.

    I think my beer doner was a little riled up because He never thought I’d shoot his beer. Lol



    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 02-27-2020 at 09:46 PM.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master bosterr's Avatar
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    Oh! Your rifle is laid lengthwise on the 6X6! And it looks like you shoot off of a dresser so a card table or a patio table will move too much under recoil. I'll be taking the rig to my club's benches that are build with cement block bases. It's far too cold here in Pa. to try your method now so I'll get things gathered up for warmer temps. Does the trigger guard touch/hit the 6X6 at all?

  15. #35
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    This was in my Machine Shop and the 6x6 is sitting on my loading bench, and it is pretty stable and solid. No, the trigger guard doesn't touch the 6x. The gun is entirely supported by the fore end.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I noticed last night that I had to put my mil dot to the right side of the can when shooting at 100 yards and there was zero wind. I did some close range plinking at approx 10 yards at 10x this morning and It might have been even a hair closer. I moved my head around to try and make sure my parallax was aligned so my crosshairs would not move when I moved my head around. I was not aware that I needed to do this when I sighted the gun in so maybe that was my problem because my “zeroed” gun from the other day shifted a little to the left at 10 yards. About a dozen or more clicks to the right corrected the issue and it was back to zero vertically at 10 yards. At 10x with the parallax adjusted all the way in to the closet focus setting I use the second mil dot above my crosshairs to hit dead center at 10x. At the same 10 yard distance at 2.5x and the parallax adjusted all the way out to infinity my left and right is still dead center buy I have to aim just below the first mil dot above my crosshairs to hit dead center. Makes sense since this is a second focal plane optic and that my mil dot aiming spots will change with magnification. I am Curious why it shifted to the left after I was hitting pellet hole per pellet hole at 23 yards the other day. I’m guessing because I sighted it in on the lead lead and my eye could have been looking at an angle to the optic?...or maybe I didn’t have the parallax perfectly lined up with the cross hair focus? My scope, scope stop, and rings seem solid as a rock yet. I used blue loc tite on my base and rings, 3m 77 adhesive inside the rings, and torqued the rings to 15 inch pounds with my wheeler torque wrench. I did notice that there was like a little mini sunshade in front of my parallax adjustment but did rattle loose while shooting the other day and I hand tightened it... Maybe it could’ve been the culprit rattling at the shot. It hasn’t come loose since but I keep checking it. I’m hoping Randy or someone can help me out with an explanation.

    This is how I’ve been shooting mine last night and today. It’s sitting there balancing perfectly like the way Randy suggested. The butt pad is not touching the garage can and just resting/floating on the mat I have draped over the grille. I love shooting it this way!

    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 02-28-2020 at 03:48 PM.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    After nonstop internet research this afternoon I’m guessing the reason my gun shifted about a half inch left after zeroing the other day is because I didn’t fine tune my parallax adjustment to see if my crosshairs were not floating along with the combination of shooting off my lead sled so my head was probably a little to the left so my face wasn’t “spot welded” to my stock? Never had a close range optic with a front AO so this is all new to me. Good thing I did some reading because I bought three more of these optics. I’m guessing if I just sight this optic in with my adjustable objective adjusted to infinity and never change it to focus any closer I wouldn’t have to worry about my POA moving. But when I do adjust it I need to make sure that my parallax is lined up with my eye focus piece so my crosshairs don’t float and Ill be fine?
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 02-28-2020 at 10:57 PM.

  18. #38
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    Don't be taken in by some of the gamo and cheaper guns' advertising of velocity, fastest pcp that I've seen is the Seneca .22 at over 1100 fps with real pellets and 500 cc,s of air, I've had to throttle back mine some for better accuracy and shot count. Break barrels are the same, advertising hype is common on the cheaper guns...a new HW90 is prolly the most powerful and anything like it would be impossible to cock.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check