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Thread: What alloy might this be please?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master BCRider's Avatar
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    What alloy might this be please?

    So I've got about 40 or 50 lbs I got for quite cheap of some sort of alloy that was said to be linotype alloy. The alloy is in long strips 24"long by 3/4" wide by .050 thick and wrapped about 20 at a time in brown paper.

    I tried casting some rifle bullets from it and they kept coming out rather frosty looking compared to my usual fairly "dull mirror" like cast bullets. I measured the hardness on newly bought Lee ball and scope kit and it looks like it's a Bnh of 25'ish. I need to make a stand for the scope instead of my shaky fingers but it's not far off 25.

    I'm seeing references that linotype is usually more like Bnh of 22. I'm pretty sure given the chart that came with the tester that my eyes are not that wobbly. Is 25 still kosher for linotype? And is it proper that it would come out a little frosty looking? I know that I turned up the heat to get good pours. At my usual lead temperature it wasn't filling cleanly at all.

    If you guys figure that this is in fact a proper linotype I guess I'm going to use it more to alloy other softer lead where needed. Or I wanted to try some .30-30 lead loads for cowboy long range. The max pressure shown for lead that hard suggests that it may be a good fit for some .308 size fast moving rounds.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    The hardness testers being sold are not very precise, so it does indeed sound like you came across some linotype. Cut it down with a lot of pure lead and you will be GTG.

    Don
    NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
    NRA Life Member

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    sounds like you have some linotyp spacers.Your bullets are frosty because it is likely hsd mot tin and antimony than the alloy you are useing.i would bet you cast at the same temp as your other alloy.the more tin and antimony the lower your casting temp will be.I have done this several times with out thinking.cast your normal alloy them got to a hier alloy content mix and be wat to hot and come out with frosty bullets.no big deal

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    No reversed lettering along one edge of those strips? Linotype spacers lack the lettering, while Lino proper has it. The difference is that the spacers can be (but are not necessarily) an alloy that may be a bit lower in Sb and Sn than the lino alloy with type. That happens because Lino (nominally an 82-12-4 alloy, though there were some variations) got remelted and reused, and could lose the two metals to oxidation and dross removal. The type needed to stay hard to make good letter impressions, so there were replenishment alloys added to boost up the tin and antimony. Spacers never touched the page, so the depleted alloy was often used for that.
    Last edited by kevin c; 02-10-2020 at 11:45 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Linotype melts and casts at a lower temperature than alloys that are lower in antimony (like clip on wheel weights), and doesn't get frosty at optimal casting temperatures. If those spacers are actually linotype, they should break when bent. Linotype is typically said to be 22 BHN, but that can vary if it was mixed with other type metal, either softer or harder. I have a bunch of lino, monotype, and spacers in a pile. When I melt it in that mixed state, it comes out at 26-28 BHN, so hardness alone won't tell you if it's actually linotype.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  6. #6
    Boolit Master BCRider's Avatar
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    454PB, it does in fact bend then snap abruptly.

    It's also only .05" thick and edges are smooth. No lettering and I'd not expect any at that height So it's either material intended as spacers or it is intended as replenishment alloy if it is in fact a little on the hard side.

    I tried it at my usual temperature that I've used for casting both soft lead round ball and medium hard rifle bullets prior and since. As mentioned even with good mold warming it did not like to fill out the shapes well until I turned up the temp a little. Then it was fine but left a rather frosty finish.

    Thanks to you that replied so far. Some good hints for me as I've only done limited casting so far.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  7. #7
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    a picture would help

    these are spacers




    smooth with no letters on them

    they could be between 11 and 19 BHN -- you really have to test them


  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I have a bunch of spacers that are soft, and can be bent double without breaking. My point is that there is so much variation in type metals that without an XFR analysis, you really don't know what you have. All my type metal (I originally got about a ton of it) came from an abandoned print shop. 90% of it was in letter form, the rest in ingots and spacers. I still question why it is casting frosty as you say. To me, that indicates lots of antimony and little or no tin. It is my understanding that the "sweetening" alloy used to reconstitute the type metal was high in both tin and antimony.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I have a few of the long pigs that may be replenishment alloy. They all have cast in markings saying "Federated Castomatic", and have ink stamps indicating 7% Sn, 11.25% Sb, 81.75% Pb. The broken off ears have that fine crystalline look that I'm told is the antimony.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master BCRider's Avatar
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    OK, so I pulled out an open pack and a new pack and noticed something on the end of the new pack. I don't know why I didn't see this before.

    So the printing on the ends says 4pt which would be a print size. And likely that makes sense for the .05 thickness as a line spacer. And the SLU6S might be information on the alloy? Or the guy consistently makes his G's look like 6's and it's 4pt slugs.

    Also included is a picture of what it snaps like when it bends. That's one attempt to bend it one way. It curls easily at first then gets very firm and snaps abruptly. Almost like the single bending action work hardens the area very rapidly.

    The way it flexes, hardens and snaps made me try something else. I held it hanging over a corner of my bench, It's a square edge that is rounded with about a 1/8" radius. So not "sharp" by any means. I held the strip down with a piece of 2x4 with the rounded edge over the edge of the bench. I bent the strip down about 20° and then back up. It snapped about the point it was back to level. So certainly not at all like the malleability of most lead alloys. Not even close.

    This got me thinking that it's either a very odd lead alloy or not lead at all but something like zinc.

    Thoughts on this?Click image for larger version. 

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    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I found this. I'm not entirely sure, not knowing that much about the actual composition of a "page" of type set up with Linotype, but slugs could be the blank spacers or maybe the whole length of Linotype with letters that made up one typeset line. Seems to be the first, given how you found the box labeled.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_(typesetting)

    ETA: you can test for zinc with a drop of muriatic acid (pool acid, or hydrochloric acid). It'll fizz like crazy if zinc. Be sure to wear eye/face protection, gloves and clothes you don't mind having holes in, and I also recommend not doing it on your nice walnut dining room table.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Maybe something like this

    http://nagraph.com/leads-slugs.html

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    If you do a little bit of investigation, you will find that simple line spacers are often called "slugs". The wave like appearance on the long strips in the photo also appear on the spacers when buying scrap linotype after it has been used. That appearance on the cast bullet is consistent with overheated metal and mold.

    Only an XRF scan will tell you what you have. Perhaps you have someone you can mail a splatter sample to a friend on the US side, and they could forward that with a pound of lead to BNE and he would be able to tell you exactly what you have and not keep guessing what it might be. The US postage is probably a lot cheaper than Canadian postage to the US.

    edit: I guess I type too slowly.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master BCRider's Avatar
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    Kevin, I tried cleaning a piece of the strip and I have some pool grade hydrochloric on hand. Just left a nice clean surface. No fizzing or eating into the surface. It's like it removed a touch of the slightly grey surface oxide then stopped. Left it for 5 minutes before washing clean. No change after the first cleaning that occurred in the first 3 to 5 seconds.

    So I'm guessing that it's lead based from all this. And that it's legit linotype what with being on the hard side and can be used for alloying up some range pickup lead.... which I've got around 200 to 250 lbs of at the moment. So this might just prove worth while having.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    It looks like you got some good stuff to work with! I think that's the consensus opinion here, along with the though that the exact composition is still not a sure thing.

    Seeing the bullet you cast, I think Dusty Bannister is right: the alloy or mold was on the hot side, causing that frosting. It'll help to slow your casting pace, drop the alloy temp, or cool the mold. Do you have a casting thermometer? It can tell you a lot. For instance, I learned that, at the same pot thermostat setting, the alloy would get hotter as the pot emptied.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Another idea without a test would be to cast and weigh a bullet with your new alloy and compare the weight with bullets cast with a known alloy. I've cast bullets from pure type metal, before I knew better, and they filled out beautifully, were hard to get to fall out of the mold and were very hard. But if your strips break when you bend them you probably have something pretty hard.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Print spacers can be any alloy! Many old shops made their own from anything that would melt. The do NOT need to be hard, just consistent thickness for the printing industry.

    You can guess and melt and guess all day. Only way to know what you have is to send contact BNE and send a sample for an X-ray gun analysis. Then you will know the exact % makeup.

    banger

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy dimaprok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin c View Post
    ....For instance, I learned that, at the same pot thermostat setting, the alloy would get hotter as the pot emptied.
    Mine just the opposite with Lee 4-20 pot, once it gets empty the temperature drops. This is where PID helps.



    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    That's funny, Dimaprok, because it was on my 4-20 that I had to keep turning down the temp dial to keep the alloy at constant temp as measured by thermometer. Like you, my pots are now PID controlled.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master BCRider's Avatar
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    All the strips I've got are wrapped rather thoroughly in brown paper with generous fiber reinforced paper tape. And the wrapping and tape work is very consistent. So I'm thinking it's new stock from a supplier of some sort... although no labeling other than the hand written note on the end as in the photo above. So machine wrapped and taped by an inside casting department in a large printing outfit? I guess that is more likely given the lack of proper label noting a company's name.

    As I mentioned above I upped the temperature when I got bad mold fills. It took raising the temp about 10 to 15% to get a good fill out. But when I try again I'll lower the temp lower than usual. Do these things work such that a lower temp works well and raising it causes poor fills? Then going even higher restores the proper fills?

    The one pot with this strapping in it was also a test mix. There was about 1/5 to 1/4 of the previous alloy (soft lead from doing round ball) in the pot. I suspected something was wrong by the way the strapping was snapping so it was a trial run. I put in enough of the strapping to fill the pot around 3/4 full then started the casting. So maybe 1/3 softer lead and 2/3's this spacer alloy. Bad fills were dumped back in the pot and I adjusted the temp up a little at a time with a pause to let the temperature catch up and tried again. Had to do this about three times to get good mold fills. But all along the way I was getting frosty surfaces from the normal for soft lead up to where I got what you see in the picture above.

    A thermometer would be a good idea. I'll have to get one along the way. The pot I use is a Lyman Big Dipper. For the pour I've got a dipper ladle that has a side port so the scum off the top is held back.

    Given what you guys are teaching me now I'm guessing that I don't want to use a really high percentage of this strapping/spacers anyway. I'm going to try some other recipes to find a good filling mix that gives me a little harder formula.
    Witty saying to be plagarized shortly.....

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check