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Thread: Muzzleloading hunting has officially gone too far!

  1. #61
    Boolit Master


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    Dimner,
    You are more right than wrong. None of the people I know who ML would have one if they could hunt during ML season with a modern rifle. None use a ML during rifle season. Same with bows. None of the people I know would want to hunt with a bow if a rifle could be used.

    This is in the ML forum and you are getting a subset of hunters. Factor in that these guys want to have a season of their own to justify the investments they have and make them "special". They like the fact there are fewer hunters out there to deal with and are not interested in growing the number of participants.

    States have different priorities. Harvesting is down, number of tags is down, herds are up. They face deer management issues as well economic issues. Most ML'ers will resist any changes that affect their interests and some are concerned about the "purity" of the sport.

    All hunters are not ML'ers so the states have little choice if they want to address their concerns.

    In some states, we have the new straight wall cartridge rules to allow rifles where only shotguns were legal. They did that for a reason.

    In MI, there was (is?) a bill to start rifle season 10 days earlier. Some support it, the traditionalists do not.

    ML'ers will not be immune to changes either. Follow the money.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #62
    Boolit Buddy bishopgrandpa's Avatar
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    I can see how this offends the traditionalist but the ML season gives me two extra weeks to hunt. I don't wear a coonskin hat nor do I care what brings the meat to the table. If this helps me have a better chance to bring home a deer w/o having the "traditional" mess of a clean up, Why not?

  3. #63
    Boolit Master

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    Been awhile since I muzzleloader hunted in CO, for that, awhile since I hunted. IIRC though, no pellets, no smokeless, no scopes, no sabots. For a long time, I could only hunt with my TC Hawken, but after many a year and enough pressure, in-lines were legalized.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bishopgrandpa View Post
    I can see how this offends the traditionalist but the ML season gives me two extra weeks to hunt. I don't wear a coonskin hat nor do I care what brings the meat to the table. If this helps me have a better chance to bring home a deer w/o having the "traditional" mess of a clean up, Why not?
    If all you are after is meat, why not bow hunt? Here we have a 3 1/2 month long bow season. Many states you can use a crossbow, which is even easier to master than a muzzleloader.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    If all you are after is meat, why not bow hunt? Here we have a 3 1/2 month long bow season. Many states you can use a crossbow, which is even easier to master than a muzzleloader.
    "hunting seasons". this is where some states/counties/towns have decided that a crossbow OR airbow is the same thing as a REAL archery bow. the stupidity continues as long as dollar$ are collected by those making the rules.
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

  6. #66
    Boolit Buddy MrHarmless's Avatar
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    If the projectile is loaded from the muzzle, it's a muzzle loader.

    If the projectile is loaded from the breech, it's a breech loader.

    Unfortunately it flirts with the limits of your preferences.
    Member of the FAIP Mafia
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Wow this is getting pretty far fetched. The laws change yearly in the various states so no hard and fast statements. I am not aware of any states the allow 1859/1863 Sharps breechloader percussion as muzzloaders since the bullet loads from the breech.,,,,,,,.
    It would be legal in Mississippi and Louisiana during "Primitive" season. "including primitive firearms known as in line primitive firearms, and Single shot, breech loading rifles, .35 caliber or larger, having an exposed hammer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes." We don't have a "muzzleloader" season anymore. Well, maybe the Sharps would not be allowed because it does not have a metallic cartridge. I doubt any warden would bust you or even look close enough to see you were using a breach loaded paper cartridge.

    Tim
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  8. #68
    Boolit Buddy cas's Avatar
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    If states need to increase the harvest, increase bag limits and make seasons longer.

    I've never been a fan of inlines. I've never seen the point of pretending you're muzzle loading.
    If you're going to shoot a modern muzzle loader, why not just buy a Handy Rifle or ruger No.1 in say 45-70. Put the empty primed case in the gun, pour a charge of IMR 4198 down the barrel so you're following the rules , followed by a cast bullet. "Whoopie, I'm a muzzle loader!"
    Former cylindersmith.

  9. #69
    Well that is NOT muzzle-loading hunting AT ALL! Its just a gimmic to get around all law and make it easier for Non traditional type hunters to get another tag!!!!!!!

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    I don't care for it.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cas View Post
    If states need to increase the harvest, increase bag limits and make seasons longer.

    I've never been a fan of inlines. I've never seen the point of pretending you're muzzle loading.
    If you're going to shoot a modern muzzle loader, why not just buy a Handy Rifle or ruger No.1 in say 45-70. Put the empty primed case in the gun, pour a charge of IMR 4198 down the barrel so you're following the rules , followed by a cast bullet. "Whoopie, I'm a muzzle loader!"
    Been wanting to try that sort of thing with a 45ACP bolt action for quite some time!

  12. #72
    Boolit Bub
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    Harry Pope and others made "breech muzzle loaders" for match shooting. Bullet was loaded from the muzzle using a false muzzle, paper patch, starter and rammed down, then a cartridge was placed in the chamber. All precise for match shooting. I had one. That said, this thing is an abortion and an affront to those of us who believe primitive seasons should stay true to the original intent. Bleach powder, lead ball or slug, cap or flint. Anything else goes in modern season.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaG View Post
    Harry Pope and others made "breech muzzle loaders" for match shooting. Bullet was loaded from the muzzle using a false muzzle, paper patch, starter and rammed down, then a cartridge was placed in the chamber. All precise for match shooting. I had one.
    I am more familiar with Schuetzen rifles. Most of these rifles used grease groove bullets and a false muzzle. It's my understanding that the bigger slug guns used paper patched bullets and false muzzle. These bullets had the paper applied as the bullet is pushed down into the false muzzle. I have read about this system but i have never seen one in use.

    The load used by CW Rowland/Pope to shoot his record setting group on May 16, 1901 appeared in an interview with Outdoor Life magazine in October, 1902. It was a duplex load of 3grs DuPont No.1 smokeless and 47grs of Fg Hazard black powder. Powders were dropped into the case using a Pope duplex measure. A Leopold Oelo wad was pressed in the case mouth. His bullets were cast 1:10 (tin:lead) using Leopold's No.6 bullet lubricant. Roland’s Pope-Ballard rifle had a scope and the group was fired from a Pope machine rest. The only notes about range conditions that day were “Light rain” and “No Wind”.

    Did your rifle use traditional wrapped paper patched bullet or did it apply the paper in the false muzzle? I am tying figure out how many system they used. I know of two types shown below. Did your's use one of these or something different.

    https://www.dedinski.com/verkauf/gew...oss_patch.html

    https://www.blackpowdermag.com/black...-mitchell-gun/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 02-17-2020 at 11:59 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  14. #74
    Boolit Master

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    what is so hard for some folks to understand? if the gun's breech is not intended to be easily opened, and therefore the powder and projectile must go down the tube from the muzzle end, then it's a muzzle loading firearm. this is the only type of long gun that should be allowed during "muzzleloader (or 'primitive') season". anything else ain't.
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    Wow those firesticks are expensive, $25.00 for ten of them. Plus you still need bullets and 209 primers too. Worse is you can't reload them either. I don't see this as getting much out of the gate, so to speak. Too costly.
    https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/feder...-8-powder.html

    About its only advantage is for cold, wet, rainy days maybe. You'd be less likely to have a misfire then.

    But heck I use paper cartridges that are waxed in my muzzle loader. Those are more or less waterproof to some extent. You cut off the end, pour in the powder, and ram the rest down the barrel. Then prime the pan or stick on a cap and you are ready to go. Those are a lot cheaper than these firesticks.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master

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    flintlocks in the rain aren't a big deal and will be reliable if you understand how to handle them.
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Jeff Cooper

  17. #77
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earlwb View Post
    Wow those firesticks are expensive, $25.00 for ten of them. Plus you still need bullets and 209 primers too. Worse is you can't reload them either. I don't see this as getting much out of the gate, so to speak. Too costly.
    https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/feder...-8-powder.html

    About its only advantage is for cold, wet, rainy days maybe. You'd be less likely to have a misfire then.

    But heck I use paper cartridges that are waxed in my muzzle loader. Those are more or less waterproof to some extent. You cut off the end, pour in the powder, and ram the rest down the barrel. Then prime the pan or stick on a cap and you are ready to go. Those are a lot cheaper than these firesticks.
    If Federal had come out with some kind of waterproof powder cartridge that you could shove down your barrel, I would applaud them for creativity. It wouldn't be traditional, but it would be interesting.

    After mulling this over for the past number of weeks, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't care. It's a piss poor idea, only serving to rake in cash from suckers for a few years until it is discontinued. Then they are left with useless guns. I won't buy one, but if someone else does, I don't care. I enjoy muzzleloading, and I enjoy the winter muzzleloading season. I don't see this helping or hurting me.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    This is interesting. I don't hunt with muzzle loaders. Never will. I have a comment that's it. This is what happens with a government gone wild with socialistic tendencies. Just 10 minutes ago I was reading about Formula 1 racing (which I used to enjoy watching). I thought to myself "why don't any Americans compete in this race?" . Then I remembered. It is not a legitimate race anymore. There are so many restrictions and rules, new ones every year, that it it is more about how to tweak or cheat COMPLIANCE than it is a race.
    That is exactly what is going on here with the RULES AND REGULATIONS concerning hunting and the ownership and use of guns.
    It makes me want to puke. Like something out of a cheap sci-fi movie where the big brother government intrudes on every aspect of a persons lives. Young people don't even know what freedom is anymore.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    flintlocks in the rain aren't a big deal and will be reliable if you understand how to handle them.
    And a "Cows Knee" helps keep the rain out too.

    Slim
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  20. #80
    In Wisconsin we have a ML season that is a joke. Therebis no advantage to it. It is the last season to start in the year so archers and modern rifles all get first bidding. ML's just get the 10 days following the modern gun season. I hunt with a flintlock, but don't give a fart whether they allowed semi autos for the entire duration.

    What matters more to me is the muzzleloader-only areas. There used to be a number of State Parks that were ML only. Now most of those parks were opened to modern smokeless shell-shuckers. Well now the few parks that remained ML only are wildly popular. It may be because you can hunt public land without having to duck for cover when you hear someone light up their AR-15. I wish they would get the hint and make more acreage ML-only.

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