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Thread: Embarrassing question

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I vote for the bullets being pushed too hard. Doesn't take much. For lubed .30 cal bullets a general rule of thumb is 140,000rpm is the 'limit'. This does depend a lot on alloy and your bullet quality, but, if you stay below that you will usually have decent groups. My most accurate groups are between 1800 and 2000fps with cast, both lubed and PC.

    With lubed bullets I had 1" groups at 2000fps. At 2200fps they were 6". At 2400fps they were mostly off the paper.

    Powder coated they can go a bit faster but work up in steps to see where yours work best.

  2. #22
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    With that load pushing probably 2600 +/- fps out of a 10" twist at 197,000 RPM +/_.....definitely above the RPM Threshold of 120-140,000 RPM (not a "limit" but a moveable threshold that, when crossed, accuracy/precision is lost).
    Larry Gibson

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  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrutalAB View Post
    Gun is a rem 783 in 30/06
    I have been working on deer loads for a recently purchased Remington 783 in 308. One of the children purchased this rifle as a package with scope and plastic stock for the two grandchildren to use for deer hunting when they visit. One of the problems I have had is either Remington factory, or my handloads with 150 grain jacketed bullets group the first 3 in about 2", and then they start to drift, like out to a pattern of 12" after the 10th one is shot. I was afraid to try any of my cast bullet 308 loads in it. So, besides driving your cast bullets too fast, there might be additional problems with the gun itself. I have written this one off as a 3-shot deer gun. Not an all-day target rifle. These test firings were all done at about 25 to 35 degrees F.

  4. #24
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    Superformance has a very limited use- pushing jacketed bullets at the highest velocity the cartridge can muster. Change powders and slow the bullet down and I bet your gun will start working right.

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  5. #25
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    I would try around
    26 grains of 5744, work up to 29.5 grains max
    26 grains of IMR 4227, work up to 29.0 grains max
    25 grains of 4759, work up to 27.0 grains max

    Also seat your bullet out until it just engages the rifling.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy BrutalAB's Avatar
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    30 yards and chroned this time.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The group is the 4 on the left.
    The marked out one on the bottom was the 100 yard "group"
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Wow. Are the sights aligned? I know it might sound like a dumb statement. Have you shot this gun before and if so, where were the shots landing on the target? Does it have non standard sights?

    Nevermind, I went back and read the first post.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy BrutalAB's Avatar
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    Scope is a cheap 3-9 tasco.

    Took 5 deer at 120 to 250 yards this past fall with it using hornady 180 grain sst which is what it is sighted for.
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

  9. #29
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    They are just moving way too fast for a standard 10" twist barrel.
    Look for a load moving 1800-1900fps, start from there and move up until the groups start getting larger, then back off a little and fine tune from there. That will be the max from that bullet/gun.

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy
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    See post #28. Start at lower velocity and work up until accuracy declines, then back off to the last, most accurate load. At least that's the way it works for me. Keep us posted.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrutalAB View Post

    Its not the gun, i have shot 3/4 inch groups with it before.
    Yes it is the gun/bullet combo. Pushing a cast bullet as fast as you are with the twist your rifle has is not doable.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy BrutalAB's Avatar
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    Thats disappointing. Guess the path is clear. Slow it down.
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

  13. #33
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    Or put on a slower twist barrel.
    I have a 30-06XCB with a 14 twist barrel, some of the guys are shooting a 16 or 17 twist barrel and have pushed around 2900-3000fps.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master


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    You don't specify WHAT you are shooting. Rifle? Handgun? Cast or J word?

    I might say abandon the bullet. A few years ago, I got a real education about bullet weight vs twist, this after 30+ years reloading. I had heard about the twist vs bullet weight thing, especially since the military went to heavier bullets and faster twists in the M16 in the 80s. But I didn't pay much attention to it, since I loaded and shot pretty conventional stuff. I sort of assumed "Yeah, I guess the wrong twist/weight means you shoot a 3 or 4 inch group instead of a 1 inch group." Was I wrong!

    About 5 or 6 years ago I put together a .223 bolt gun for shooting cast. It shot my boolits pretty well. I was curious about what it would do with a true match grade projectile, so I dusted off a box of Sierra 68gr Matchkings from the old days with my AR Match HBAR. Those were proven tackdrivers.

    First shot at 100 yds was right on target, so I proceeded to shoot the next four. There were no other holes on the paper (2' x 2' square.) I suspected a poi issue with the higher velocity of the jacketed loads, so I moved closer, to 50 yards. I shot an 8 inch pattern!!! That 1st shot at 100 was just a lucky hit.

    I was befuddled, so I posted here, and some helpful people straightened me out. It turns out my twist was 1:12, great for lighter traditional .223 bullets, but not the heavies, which shot great out of match ARs with 1:9 or 1:7 barrels. I tried plain 55 gr FMJ ball loads and they shot pretty well, so I picked up a box of 53 gr Matchkings. Now we had a tackdriver again!

    Sorry that was so long, but the point is, what are you shooting and at what range? Short answer would be test it closer to begin with I guess.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master


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    Sorry BrutalAB, I missed your second post where you did identify what you were shooting!

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master

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    30-06
    RCBS #30-180-FN , size .309
    Powder: 2400
    starting load - 20.0 grs @ 1843 fps
    maximum load - 24.0 grs @ 1986 fps

    My pet load "sweet spot" accuracy load is - 21.0 grs of 2400
    Fired out of a 1903-A3 Springfield Rifle .

    The RCBS boolit is a good one , I have no experience with Superformance powder so don't know of it's virtues .
    Velocity...stay between 1800 and 1900 fps to begin with and see if accuracy is acceptable.

    IMR 3031 , IMR 4895 and Varget would be other tried and true powders to work with .
    Gary
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  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy BrutalAB's Avatar
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    Got to do a little shooting at the 100 yard mark today. Decided to load up and test 20 grains of 2400, got a 2 inch group out of it.
    Not the best but its definitly a start.
    Will other magnum pistol powders work for this as well? I have lots of aa#9, blue dot, imr blue, and aa 1680. Only one pound of 2400 is why i ask.
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Not AA#9. I wouldn't mess with that. Bluedot and AA 1680 work very well. Bluedot is just like 2400, just a little faster. 1680 is more like IMR 4227, and may work better with a filler. Larry would be the one to know. It's likely IMR blue would work, but I have never seen anyone that has every shot it in a rifle.

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy BrutalAB's Avatar
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    Any particular reason why #9 wouldnt work this way? Dont mean to be buggy, just like to know the why behind things, id rather save my #9 for my 357 mag loads anyways.
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I'm won't say it wont work, as I have not tried it. Being a ball powder, it doesn't seem appropriate for such a low density loading. It's the same reason you won't see H110 used for rifle.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check