Improving hard cast blood trail?

[Tripplebeards]

Here’s some testing I did when I started out two years ago. It was my second gun I tested with cast.

I learned how to make an accurate cast bullet, crimp style, and make my gun accurate for cast...


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...man-devastator

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...my-ruger-77-44

And my results on three deer the season before last with too hard of cast like yours....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...my-devastators!!!


Take in Account I only tried this on three deer and it’s the only three deer I’ve ever shot with cast so far. Next year I’ll make sure to connect with my soft 16:1 alloy if and when I see a test deer.

I was all worried about my 16 to 1 alloy figuring it was too soft and too shallow of a penetration stopping in three water jugs. I learned water testing cast bullets is fun but it’s nowhere near the same as shooting through an animal as the 8020 with 15% pewter that looked perfect didn’t even expand on the deer I shot as you can see the exit holes in the Hides I posted. Which explains why they ran with no kinetic energy transfer. It was like poking a hole through them with an arrow. If I would’ve hit the bone like I did with the third one in my post I’m sure they would all have dropped because of the bone fragments going in every direction like a shattered, expanded bullet would have.

Here’s a picture of my 16 to 1 at 1600 FPS Lyman devastator that I recovered from the dirt back stop at 25 yards last summer. It looks quite a bit different than the water retained cast bullet I recovered.







You can see the petals flowed very good and stayed together with all the tin content in it.

And here’s the goofy water test I did that made it look like a flat penny that made me doubt using it.





My boolit weighed 184 grains recovered from the dirt at 25 yards. I believe it weighed 131 grains from water if I remember. Anyways shooting water is almost like shooting a brick wall imo.

[rockrat]

Why not use the 50/50 WW to stick-on(pure lead?) and air cool them, then powdercoat. Unless the powdercoat retards expansion (does it?)

[gumbo333]

I'll bet wolfmanjack got the Titegroup data from the GMDR site where they show data from 900 fps to 1155 fps with very good accuracy. Think they tested with Oregon Trail boolits at 15 - 16 hardness. Hope he chimes back in. I've tried Titegroup with 405 gr .459 coated boolits. Not bad but I had better accuracy with Bluedot and Reddot, then Unique. 4198 was pretty good also but with more kick. All easily minute of whitetail.

[richhodg66]

Well if your set on duplex boolits then just make sure you preheat the mold befor each pour with the soft tips in so you get a bond I did it the other day and they are stuck together but not bonded

There's a great thread in the stickies that tells how to make perfect bullets with this method. Slow and tedious, but you only need a few.

[Beaverhunter2]

There's a great thread in the stickies that tells how to make perfect bullets with this method. Slow and tedious, but you only need a few.

Exactly. My 24F .30-30 likes the Lee 309-170FN PC'ed. I'm planning on AC COWW for practice and 45gr. of pure up front COWW in back. I made 10. I'll test with a few to confirm a consistent zero (you'd think I'm from Missouri- not Alabama and Michigan) and have a handful to get me through the next 5 deer seasons!

Be safe out there!

John

[bmortell]

however its done you just need to make sure the second metal isn't getting poured onto an oxidized surface film or you might get something that don't pass a smash test, like I tried a few pellet gun pellets melted in the nose and that comes off pretty easy. then once you have a clean bond surface if you want to be sure its melted together just let the sprue cool then set the bottom of the mold in the pot for a few seconds till the sprue melts again, then you know they were liquid together and froze together. if you can be assured of those 2 things it should go well

[beltfed]

Wolfmanjack,
Please tell us what 45-70 rifle you are using
It can make a difference in how you can load it.
beltfed/arnie

[Wolfmanjack]

Rifle is a cva scout v2. I did get the reloading data from the GMDR site. I had tightgroup on hand for some 9mm I reload. Powder acquisition is an issue in my area so I haven’t been able try many different powders. I have tried Allianz reloader 7 with less than stellar results. The tightgroup load is very accurate with the hard cast. I have no doubts that my combo is lethal and maybe I shouldn’t mess with success. I do enjoy tinkering and I’m very interested in the duplex I.e. soft nosed cast bullet. I guess my main concern is will the front half of my bullet remain soft(pure lead) if I water quench it(so the back half is hard to maintain accuracy). I have shot some stick on wheel weight bullets loaded with black powder out of this gun and get some very big mushrooms with the Lee 405 grain bullet.

[Wolfmanjack]

Also what ratio of pure lead would be recommended for this 350 gr bullet if I duplex it?

[gumbo333]

Wolfmanjack have you tried hollow pointing what you have that does shoot good?

[centershot]

I agree with using a slower powder, in the 1200 fps range Unique or Universal would be my first choice.

If powder acquisition is a problem, cast up a few softpoints and use them for hunting. Use your COWW boolits for practice, they'll both fly to the same POA. Here's how I make mine:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-of-MAY-2009)

[country gent]

In one of the old NRA manuals was a technique for splitting the bullet nose to aid expansion. A thin sheet of paper was placed in the mould between the blocks and they were closed on it, The mould filled and the bullet had a split nose. How they shoot and perform I don't know having never tried it. The draw back would be cutting the paper "splitters" to a uniform size, so they could easily be set in the blocks accurately

[Hickok]

I have been using a Rage 2 blade mechanical broadhead for the last several years in bow season. This head open up to cut a 2 inch slice in a deer. It opens immediately, cutting 2 inches all the way through a deer. Imagine driving a sword with a 2 inch wide blade completely through the animal, then you get the idea of what this arrow head does.

Still when shooting deer from a ground blind, with the arrow striking at a horizontal level, it will take between 30 to 40 yards to find the first drop of blood. (From a elevated position in a tree stand, the blood trail is immediate, because the arrow come out low in the body, and the blood immediately pours out.)

These Rage heads, as well as Grim Reaper heads I have used, cut monstrous wound channels through deer. Yet, on a horizontal pass-through, the blood trail usually takes 30-40 yards to show up, as the body cavity has to fill with blood, before it can spill out of the wound. At times, wounded deer will "blow" blood out of the mouth and nose, leaving a blood trail.

I have had the same results with cast boolits in .44 mag, and .45 Colt. Even using .308 Win. and 7mm mag with jacketed bullets, deer seldom drop on the spot, and the blood trail starts after 30-40 yards after impact.

Softer alloy will help, but an "immediate" blood trail does not always happen.

[GregLaROCHE]

When I was a kid, we used to cut crosses on the tips of 22s when hunting rabbits. Wonder if something like that could work?
From a realistic point of view, a pure lead heavy hollow point, powder coated, I think would give the best expansion without the risk of leading. Almost all jacketed hunting bullets use pure lead inside the jacket. Maybe there’s something I haven’t heard, but I don’t think PCed boolits of pure lead have leaded any barrels.

[bmortell]

pure or lead tin wont get hard from water dropping or heat treating, and for amount probably up to the first driving band, so the whole nose portion. might be able to have more if the front band is ok with being pure and don't cause you any problems.

[444ttd]

I agree with using a slower powder, in the 1200 fps range Unique or Universal would be my first choice.

If powder acquisition is a problem, cast up a few softpoints and use them for hunting. Use your COWW boolits for practice, they'll both fly to the same POA. Here's how I make mine:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-of-MAY-2009)

this is right. i shot a 45-70 in 405gr fbfn(16 lead/1 tin) in trail boss in my handi rifle. it was about 1000fps+/-, i think. the 405gr did not expand at 20 yards. it was shot into snow bank(3 shots, all were taken at about 2 1/2' in). i shoot alliant 2400 in mine. its velocity is about 1300fps, i never checked the chrony.

[oconeedan]

In my experience, when the deer is shot high, it takes a more than a few yards before a blood trail appears. It seems the body cavity has to fill to the height of the wounds before the blood starts coming out. Just my experience.

I agree with this. And another note, shoulder shots may not bleed as well as lung shots. Low lung shots usually leak faster, but as you noted, shoulder shots usually drop them faster.

[Tripplebeards]

I have been using a Rage 2 blade mechanical broadhead for the last several years in bow season. This head open up to cut a 2 inch slice in a deer. It opens immediately, cutting 2 inches all the way through a deer. Imagine driving a sword with a 2 inch wide blade completely through the animal, then you get the idea of what this arrow head does.

Still when shooting deer from a ground blind, with the arrow striking at a horizontal level, it will take between 30 to 40 yards to find the first drop of blood. (From a elevated position in a tree stand, the blood trail is immediate, because the arrow come out low in the body, and the blood immediately pours out.)

These Rage heads, as well as Grim Reaper heads I have used, cut monstrous wound channels through deer. Yet, on a horizontal pass-through, the blood trail usually takes 30-40 yards to show up, as the body cavity has to fill with blood, before it can spill out of the wound. At times, wounded deer will "blow" blood out of the mouth and nose, leaving a blood trail.

I have had the same results with cast boolits in .44 mag, and .45 Colt. Even using .308 Win. and 7mm mag with jacketed bullets, deer seldom drop on the spot, and the blood trail starts after 30-40 yards after impact.

Softer alloy will help, but an "immediate" blood trail does not always happen.

Hickok...

I switched back to rage hypodermics this past year but never saw a head mounter to test it on. When rage first came out they never had instructions in them telling not to line the blades up with the cuts in the plastic rings... So guess whst?, I lined them up and shot two deer in a row and they never opened up but luckily both deer I are owed were heart and lung shots and went 40 and 45 yards and fell over within feet of each other. I actually had a blood trail going over the first dead deer as the other one tripped over it on the trail running away. I called rage that year and have a conversation with them and was told not to line the blades up with the shock collar slits like I did and they came out with directions the next Year saying so. Here’s a big buck I shot with the non opening rages that day.





My buddies did the same thing that year but I shot a few deer first and gave them the education and they’ve never had a problem sons with great big slits and big blood trails. I was mad and went and got some Grim Reaper Whitetail specials the next year. I shot two deer with my crossbow with them. The first deer the arrow never exited so I had zero blood trail but it only went 20 yards and fell over. The second one was a buck that was quartering away from me in the broad had opened up in flight and deflected off the side of the deer in poked underneath that shoulder and fell out. I trailed that thing over 500 yards and found it believe it or not. It had one slit that went through all the ribs like a machete and sliced one of the lungs! It’s still killed the deer but I never use those again either.





I have to say it was one of the most exciting tracking jobs ever. You can see it’s laying by my creek. That deer actually zigzag down the side of my ridge, cross the blacktop road, down into my creek, and then it walked a block down the creek in the water! I almost gave up looking for the blood trail and I zigzagged on the other side of the creek which is not my property and finally found blood going up into the grass. I found my deer about 150 yards away laying in head tall grass. I couldn’t believe I found that deer! He wasnt a monster, but boy it was fun and frustrating trail. I was pretty proud of myself finding that deer. Thats longest tracking job I’ve ever done and found a dead animal. You can see if the angle it was standing I was aiming for the leg on the other side for an exit. The deer was less than 20 yards away from me either and I was in a tree stand 15 feet high and arrow somehow instead of hitting at an angle deflected and went across the whole side of the deer. My favorite expandable broadheads for the Rocky Mountain gator 100s with a chisel tips back in the 80s, 99% of the deer I shot with a good shot that is, I could watch them drop within sight. Then they changed to a cut on contact tip that turned it into a defective folding piece of aluminum if I hit bone. I shot dozens a big bucks with those broadheads until they discontinued them it’s been downhill ever since hopefully Rage is the answer. Those gator 100s made such large bloods trails that a blind man could follow! I had blood trails at times 10 to 12 feet wide... Not like you needed them because the deer always went down within sight when the trails looked like that. It literally made it look like a horror show.


The OP mentioned that he was shooting pure lead with black powder loads in is 4570 making large mushrooms. If it were me I’d be shooting that!

[GregLaROCHE]

When I was expressly hunting, I used my scoped 30.06 with jacketed 180 gn core locks. Just wondering if they make core locks in .45/70.

[Tripplebeards]

When I was expressly hunting, I used my scoped 30.06 with jacketed 180 gn core locks. Just wondering if they make core locks in .45/70.

I know this is a castboolit forum but that is my go to bullet in my 30-06! It’s the hammer of Thor. Sorry Castbooliteers.lol. I actually have two bags of 100 180 grain Corelocts I reload. My dad used to buy me boxes of the old Remington‘s in those when I was a kid and I’ve always stuck with them because it’s my old faithful.