1917 brazilian

[salvadore]

I purchased a bunch of .45 rimmed cases for my .45 shooter mentioned above. The throats measure .454+ a bit. I'm using 454190 which casts to .454, the bullet drags some when pushing it thru the chamber. I used accurate #5 6.3gr. overall length is 1.25". I shot 6 rounds into my handy snow bank test medium. Didn't check for bullets walking or anything but check if I was abusing the 1917 and move along in case the snow bank police were around.

My question is #5 known for leaving unburnt powder in the barrel? Is my load too light? Does anyone have experience with heavy bullets in a .45acp revolver?

[tazman]

According to the most recent data published by the powder maker, you are right at the starting load for 45ACP using that powder/boolit combination. I assume the rimmed case uses the same data. I have never heard anyone complain about unburnt powder using #5. I never checked myself because I had no problems with that I knew about.
Here is a link to the data. https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-co....0-Web-REV.pdf

[Outpost75]

In my Colt New Service .45 ACP M1917 and S&W .45 Hand Ejector I have standardized on 4 grains of Bullseye with Accurate 45-264H. Clean burning and accurate. I cast bullets from 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, lubricate them with Lee Liquid Alox and load as-cast and unsized which fits their .455" cylinder throats. The same charge weight in TiteGroup, WST or 452AA give similar results. Velocity is 760 fps.

Attachment 255401

[Dutchman]

My Brazilian loves HG68 .452" in AutoRim cases. My favorite holster gun.

[Harter66]

The Sept 18' 1917 I had shot H&G #130s , 452-200 RNFP , and 45-200 SWC very well but the 452-255 and 454424 poorly . All over 5.5 Unique in both AR and ACP .

Mom's Colts 1917 shot both the 255 and 424 well .

Mom's Colts has .454 throats while the Smith had .453 , both with .452 grooves .

[salvadore]

Thanks for the onfo Taz, ditto Out. Love the holster Dutch commercial or home made? "Mom's Colts 1917" is a great beginning to a sentence, Hart.

I have some loaded approaching max suggested and increased the crimp.

[Dutchman]

Thanks for the onfo Taz, ditto Out. Love the holster Dutch commercial or home made? "Mom's Colts 1917" is a great beginning to a sentence, Hart.

I have some loaded approaching max suggested and increased the crimp.

Hand-made from a pattern I made. The leather is very slightly too thin but after 30+ years I've grown very attached to it.





Dutch

[kens]

I luv it. I got one too.
Too much fun.
Fun also when at the range with someone that is shootin' a 1911, you just pick up some his ammo and start blasting.
ya, I know, I'm bad.

[salvadore]

well less unburnt powder and pretty snappy but may reduce the crimp. Need to put it on paper before continuing....maybe. Does anyone feel like their cylinder is binding after shooting a few rounds?

Need to cast and load some rounds for a Colt Lightning in 44/40, then I can cast for my 32 spec. and 8mm Mauser oh yeah and 32/20. Thank God for winter. Already did hornets and .38 supers.

[Outpost75]

well less unburnt powder and pretty snappy but may reduce the crimp. Need to put it on paper before continuing....maybe. Does anyone feel like their cylinder is binding after shooting a few rounds?

Need to cast and load some rounds for a Colt Lightning in 44/40, then I can cast for my 32 spec. and 8mm Mauser oh yeah and 32/20. Thank God for winter. Already did hornets and .38 supers.

If cylinder gap is within factory specs: min. 0.003 pass/0.004 hold, max. 0.008 pass/0.009 hold you should not get any cylinder binding, even with black powder, if you use a correct lube for the powder type, 50-50 olive oil-beeswax or SPG for black and Lee Liquid Alox for smokeless. You can reduce the olive oil to 70-30 beeswax-olive oil if you want a harder lube for smokeless in hot weather. Also OK to substitute Mineral Oil USP, ATF, SAE30 motor oil for the olive oil when shooting smokeless only.

For BP use OK to substitute canola, cottonseed or corn oil for the olive oil, but you will need to experinent with the ratio to get the hardness you want. 50-50 works most of the time, 70-30 in hot desert environment over 90 degs. F.

If you use a powder of large particle size, SUCH AS UNIQUE which does not burn completely below 14,000 psi, a single granule of powder can jam up your gun. THAT IS WHY I use Bullseye, TiteGroup, WST, or 452AA in the .38 Special, .44 Special, .44-40, .455 Mk2, .45 Colt and .45 AR.

[salvadore]

Don't know from pass or hold cylinder gap, but remember the gap being pretty tight. Will try and find feeler gage tomorrow. Been using Darr's formula for everything for years now. Use to use a beeswax, lanolin, castor oil and something else but lost the recipe. I read that Darr's is pretty much SPG but really don't know...Anyway have used bullseye and titegroup in this shooter with same binding to a degree also #5 is eensy teensy (technical term)

I'm thinking your pass hold refers to the squareness of the cylinder gap...Will check on that. As always, thanks for your info. Oh yeah, any thoughts on a fix.

[Outpost75]

Revolver 101 tutorial:

Mechanical and Safety Inspection of the Double-Action Service Revolver

Based upon common questions I receive from readers, and having to repeat, what used to be common knowledge, it appears that most shooters today lack any basic understanding of double-action revolver inspection.

This guide is for the non-professional, but covers the aspects of revolver annual inspection as it was practiced by police armorers back when your life depended upon your service revolver going "bang~!" every time. So, pay attention, Grasshopper and you will know how to inspect a used gun before buying, and be more knowledgeable than most people working behind the gun shop counter:

Open the cylinder, keeping the muzzle pointed safely into the clearing barrel.

Confirm that all of the cylinder charge holes are empty and that the bore is clear.

Actuate the ejector rod fully inward. Hold and examine the underside of the extractor and contact area of the cylinder for unburned propellant residue. Brush clean if any is found present. If a revolver used in sandy areas, sand may indeed collect in there as well.

Confirm proper function of the thumbpiece when releasing and opening the cylinder.
S&Ws push forward, Colts pull backward, Ruger pushes inward.

Inspect the firing pin hole in the recoil plate/frame bushing for peening for burrs.

Gunsmith or armorer needs to stone off any burrs around firing pin hole and to restake or replace the recoil plate or firing pin bushing if loose, cracked, damaged. Brownell’s sells the correct tool for doing this.

Press on the center pin which protrudes at the center of the extractor of an S&W or Ruger at rear of cylinder, to verify center free pin movement and positive return.

Visually inspect the front end of the S&W center pin for peening. Stone off any burrs.

With the cylinder open, spin the cylinder and watch the end of the ejector rod for wobble.

Check with the fingers that ejector rod is tight, and not loose on threads.

Verify that the ejector rod functions correctly at its full stroke and returns positively.

Close the cylinder, grasping with thumb and forefinger.

The cylinder must not strike the barrel when closed!

Confirm that both front and rear of the center pin on S&W or older Ruger Six series lock positive fore & aft as cylinder is closed. Inspect crane lock function lock on later Rugers.

Visually inspect fit of yoke/ crane at front of frame for gaps, which could indicate misalignment.

Check barrel-cylinder gap with feeler gage inserted completely through the frame opening between cylinder and barrel.

PASS is the dimension when protruding out both sides of frame window between barrel and cylinder, which does not impair a complete rotation of the cylinder by pulling trigger through DA six times.

Min PASS dimension is 0.003", because a tighter gap may bind cylinder when gun gets hot or if shooting "dirty" ammo, such as black powder or lead bullets which are too hard, undersized and inadequately lubricated...

HOLD is the dimension when protruding out both sides of the frame window between barrel and cylinder, which binds rotation so that resistance is felt in a DA trigger squeeze.

Max. hold is 0.008" on a new gun when measured with "rear gage" or fired brass in cylinder. Customer service max. is 0.009" if cylinder end play is not excessive.

At 0.010" cylinder gap the usual factory repair procedure is to fit a new "long" cylinder. Gunsmith method is to set the barrel back a thread and refit after removing end shake, stretching crane arbor on S&W or Ruger if necessary, or swaging a Colt cylinder bushing.

Feel cylinder fore & aft for longitudinal movement. On Colts this check should be made with the trigger held to the rear in the fired mode, then cylinder lockup should then be solid.

End shake is measured comparing the HOLD dimension measured twice, with and without empty brass or "GO" headspace gages in the chambers, or alternately with a 0.059" blade gage inserted between rear of cylinder and recoil plate.

The least cylinder movement most people can “feel” is about 0.002.” If an S&W or Ruger and the cylinder "feels solid" with empty brass in the chambers, the gun is OK.

Colt max. end play is 0.003, so if there is ANY felt end shake the gun is out of spec.
Measure the difference between "pass" cylinder gap dimension taken twice with and without brass in cylinder.

If any sideways cylinder wobble or hesitation of center pin to lock fore and aft, disassemble cylinder from the yoke, check crane or yoke alignment with gage and correct.

Visually inspect locking bolt notches of cylinder for peening, particularly caused by cylinder backspin in S&Ws from heavy loads, such as +P in J-frame guns or +P+ in K-frame!

Pull revolver action through vigorously DA while watching for positive trigger return and positive lockup of cylinder stop/bolt at each charge hole, before hammer drops, noting any failure to "carry-up," or any "throwby" i.e. over-rotation of the cylinder failing to lock up and rotating past a chamber, or sideways wobble.

Throw-by test should always be done by a rapid DA pull; because many times an empty cylinder lacks the rotational momentum of a much heavier full cylinder and won’t show a throw-by unless the trigger is pulled quite rapidly.

The carry-up test needs to be done slowly, as a rapid pull can mask a “DCU” (factory term for doesn’t carry up) problem.

Visually check bolt or cylinder stop function at every charge hole and finger-wiggle cylinder for side-wobble at each charge hole.

Cock each chamber SLOWLY in SA with the weight of gun resting in the palm of hand for drag. Note any failure to "carry up" and for bolt or cylinder stop to engage locking bolt notches prior to full cock.

Check hammer for push-off from the full cock position.

Drop hammer, hold trigger back and check cylinder for wobble both sideways and fore & aft

With hammer down and trigger held back again check cylinder wobble, observe hammer nose driven protrusion and retraction below flush with recoil plate as trigger allowed to rebound forward.

"Tightening up" a revolver action to adjust timing/indexing may be as simple as peening a Colt hand a bit longer so that a charge hole which is "slow" carries up.

Factory procedure to correct DCU on S&W is to replace the hand with a slightly wider one, so its top comes closer to the inside of the hand slot. Thicker hands are sold for just that purpose. A factory K-frame hand is 0.091-0.095” thick, measured just below the hook. Most often a replacement hand 0.001-0.002” wider will correct the problem. Power Custom makes wider hands up to 0.105,” which require gunsmith fitting.

A gunsmith method to correct timing on older guns, particularly Colts, for which parts are not available, is to bend the band slightly. Rotate the hand medially toward cylinder centerline to speed up timing. Conversely to delay it. Sometimes the frame window needs to be opened just a wee bit to get timing correct. Brownell’s sells an offset file that makes this job much easier and precise. If that doesn’t solve the problem it’s probably because the ratchet cam surfaces have worn below the level of the hand slot and must be replaced.

S&W and Ruger timing adjustments should always be made AFTER correcting end shake and squaring the end of the cylinder yoke or crane arbor. On S&Ws the end of the yoke is frequently out of square with the axis of cylinder rotation. Again, Brownells provides a nice tool for K, L, and N frames. For J frame, I improvise with a muzzle squaring tool.

US Customs and Border Patrol experience in the early 1980s was that K-frame S&W .357s of that era required returning to the factory for a new extractor every 1500 rounds of 357 Magnum loads, while Rugers went 10,000 rounds with Remington and Winchester full charge .357 ammunition with no repairs or parts replacements being required. The associated lockwork on a Ruger Service Six, Speed Six or Security Six are hard all the way through and I’ve never heard of one going out of time in service.

An endurance test I am personally aware of conducted at FLETC by Mark Humphreville, an Aberdeen Proving Ground Certified Small Arms Test Director, for the US Border Patrol and US Customs ran six Ruger Service & Security Sixes 10,000 rounds each of full charge 357 Magnum duty ammo (125 gr and 158 gr) without going out of time.

Always visually inspect barrel forcing cones on revolvers. Per a statement by Smith & Wesson Factory QA Rep, (1983 time frame) at a meeting at the Federal Law Enforcement Training center with US Border Patrol personnel, S&W 357 K frame barrels were likely to crack in the 6:00 region after about 3000 full charge .357 rounds and required replacement.

A wobbly cylinder is usually caused by worn locking bolt notches and is usually corrected by fitting a new cylinder stop or bolt and sometimes by peening the locking bolt notches in the cylinder to reduce side play. In severe cases replacing the cylinder may be necessary, particularly on abused older Colts.

Reducing cylinder end play of a Ruger or S&W involves stretching the crane to hold the cylinder back. Supporting the inside of the crane arbor is important when stretching to prevent collapse during the procedure. Stretching the also increases cylinder gap, which if it then becomes over 0.008" then requires either refitting a "long" cylinder, or setting the barrel back a thread and resetting the gap to factory specs. Above not applicable to Colts; the gas ring, which is integral to the cylinder, must be swaged to lengthen. In extreme cases, it is machined off and a bearing ring fabricated to take its place.

A simple clean, inspect and tweak not requiring fitting any replacement parts runs $100-150 most places today.

A full duty refurb which includes any machine work needed to straighten a bent frame (caused by using the gun as an impact weapon against a hard-headed subject), or setting the barrel back and refit to correct lose cylinder gap over 0.008", realigning the crane, correcting end shake, adjusting timing to correct a DCU (doesn't carry up) condition, replacing worn springs, targeting and checking hammer throw and striker indent on the government gage with copper crusher typically runs $250-300.

Today you rarely find gunsmiths who actually MEASURE striker indent on carry guns! That's because while you can buy the gage holders and their drawings are in the public domain, the "C" size .225x.400" annealed coppers are provided only to the government and their contractors and cost $2 apiece in minimum lots of 500, the last time I bought any. So the civilian and PD gunsmiths who did this for a living developed a "work-around."

For checking hammer fall, an expedient screening check before test firing with duty ammo, to be done only after all mechanical corrections to action have been completed, is to loop a string around the hammer so that you can attach a trigger pull scale. Pull the trigger to start the hammer moving. Pause midway. Attach trigger pull gauge. Pull hammer back note weight just before it locks into single action. You want 50+ ounces for reliability. Balance between hammer spring and trigger return spring are important. A light trigger return spring and heavy hammer spring is a recipe for mechanical lockup in the action. Check for this during cylinder timing check. Trigger return should not be sluggish. If so, it indicates that action springs are imbalanced and trigger return spring likely needs replacement.

Most important on an S&W is that the strain screw in the front of the grip frame is tight, and that the screw has not been shortened to lighten trigger pull! On a carry gun that light action can get you killed, because it reduces hammer fall and may cause misfires. All .357 Mag. and most +P defense loads today use heavier-cupped primers to prevent the primer cup from flowing into the clearance around the hammer nose in the recoil plate. This would cause hard cylinder rotation.

Heavier cup primers are less sensitive, and more prone to misfires if you have a gun with lighter after-market springs to reduce DA trigger pull, inexpertly converted to DAO with shorter hammer-throw, or a bobbed hammer.

If unable to measure striker energy (minimum 0.010" Cu indent in DA on the size "C" copper in the gov't gage) test fire a full box of 50 rounds of your carry ammo in DA. Accept if ZERO misfires, Retest if "1" misfire, reject if "2". If firing a second sample of 50 rounds runs OK, the gun is OK, but understand it is only 99%... [B]If you get 2 misfires in 100 rounds don't carry the gun until you change ammo and re-test or repair it.

Check driven protrusion of hammer nose or firing pin, any pitting or damage to tip, replace any weak or modified springs.

Finding a guy who will discuss striker indent and hammer fall with you and who can explain what he does to assess it is a much better "filter" than some school certificate on the wall. Unfortunately the coppers aren't sold to the gunsmith trade, only to those who do federal contract work. SO if your gunsmith asks for a full box of your expensive carry ammo to function test, THAT is a good thing. If he can actually show you the gage holders and his $1000 box of coppers and explain their proper use, this means you have an APG or FLETC certified revolver inspector who was trained at the S&W, Colt or Ruger factory especially for the Feds, and the guy is absolutely "golden" and you should rub his bald head for good luck as if it was the Buddha's belly!

If a revolver rework requires heavy duty cleaning, such as ultrasonic cleaning followed by a hot acid pickle to remove active rust, as necessitated by prolonged sweat or saltwater immersion, or alternately hand carding off any internal rust, then replacing and fitting either a new cylinder, or barrel or critical internal parts and rebluing, the bill can easily run $500-600 if done professionally by a Pistolsmith Guild smith of national reputation.

Some things have probably changed in DA revolver manufacture since my time. The big thing is that in making guns only for the civilian mass CCW market the pressure is on production and profits, not quality. I'd spend more money for an old gun that works than for a new one which doesn't.

Back when I inspected guns for use by the Federal agencies in the 1980s the above diatribe describes how it was done. Some things are not discussed, such as comparing the color of the burn stains on the cylinder of a new stainless revolver, and looking for red or purple dye on the recoil shield to be sure it got six proof rounds, and that some bean counter wasn't saving a buck by shooting only 1 proof load and 5 regular service rounds.

Customs and Border Patrol back in the 80s rejected a lot of revolvers when an inspector noted that some cylinders had one deep black burn stain and five brown ones. Questioned guns were sent to the ATF bomb lab for electron microprobe analysis of the powder residues, which confirmed that the contractor was cheating on proof in violation of the contract requirements for six proof rounds. Those guns were returned to the factory for re-proofing in the presence of the government's Contracting Officers Technical Representative who flew up from FLETC. Out of 1200 rounds fired in retesting there were 34 misfires, or 2.8% which is no good. The misfired rounds were gathered up and sent to Picatinny Arsenal for analysis and it was determined that the firing pin indents were off center more than 1/2 the diameter of the striker point. These are the sort of things that can happen when people aren't paying attention, which you will never read about in news stand gun rags. You have to have “been there.”

I have not discussed proper use of a "range rod" or correction of "thread choke" here, because most hobby shooters won't have the tools to properly assess or fix what they find and it is possible to damage the gun if you don't use them properly.

The barrel forcing cone compensates for slight misalignment of the chambers and bore, but if bore-chamber alignment is WAY off, the gun can shave lead, especially from wadcutter bullets, which is annoying for the fellow standing next to you! If you don’t have a “range rod,” an easy "spitting" test you can conduct yourself is to load the gun with .38 Special wadcutters, stick it inside a paper bag, or cardboard box and trigger off a cylinder full DA and then check the bag or box for holes or lead particles sticking in it!

SO there you go, you now probably know more about revolvers than the guy behind the counter at your local gun shop. You can now assess when he is full of manure or not.
You don't have to thank me, it has been my pleasure. Now carry on!

[salvadore]

Leaping lizards Gashopper, so no thoughts on a fix? I appreciate your attempt at War and Peace but trying to impress the peanut gallery wasn't much help. Maybe someone else has a thought on the problem with my shooter. Now carry on.

[edp2k]

Pearls before swine.

[jrayborn]

Lots of good info there.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

Yes, thanks, Outpost75.

[Larry Gibson]

"THAT IS WHY I use Bullseye, TiteGroup, WST, or 452AA in the .38 Special, .44 Special, .44-40, .455 Mk2, .45 Colt and .45 AR."

I certainly agree with Outpost75s choice of powders. I've been shooting M1917 S&W and Colts since the late '60s and have found Bullseye to be my preferred powder choice. With the long cylinder throats slower burning powders just do not burn efficiently. Also the revolver is made for the 45 ACP cartridge with a SAAMI MAP of 21,000 psi. The Brazilians were very well made under license and supervision by S&W. The 45 AR is/was supposed to be just a rimmed version of the 45 ACP cartridge for use in the M1917s. For the life of me I don't understand the downloading of the 45 ACP cartridge and the 45 AR in particular. I was weened shooting the M1917s with the old Keith loads and the Speer loads of yesteryear. Never had a problem with any M1917s shooting those loads.

However, I have come to just using my standard 45 ACP load [in 45 ACP cases with half or full moon clips] in any M1917 and my current S&W M1917/25 (a M1917 with a M25 barrel on it) because it is a wonderfully accurate load. That is a 200 gr cast (H&G 68 copy) or the Lee 230 gr TC bullet cast of COWWs +2%t, sized .452, lubed with BAC and loaded on a Dillon SDB over 5 gr Bullseye. They run 890 and 850 fps out of the M1917/25 aand will run about 35 - 50 fps slower out of a 5 1/2" M1917.

In the past I have run the gamut of different powders up through Blue Dot and 2400 but found slower powders or heavier bullets than 230 gr really don't give much advantage. The measured pressures [Oehler M43 PBL and a Contender test barrel] show my Bullseye load runs 17 - 18,000 psi with a 200 - 205 gr SWC and 19 - 20,000 psi with the 230 TC bullet. The 454190 or 45-255-KT over 6.3 gr Unique will run right at 21,000 psi. I have used a GC'd 452490 HP'd cast of 20-1 that weights 235 gr fully dressed I used for hunting over Unique for 1050 fps out of the M1917/25 and a M25 but I'll not mention that load as it was well into +P pressures.

Yes, the M1917s do have considerably larger throats than .452 but I've found larger sized bullets usually don't shoot as well. Not saying anyone should use the loads I do......just putting the information out is all.

[TNsailorman]

I have had 3 or 4 Brazilian 1917's in the past and only one was a problem child. It had been used with corrosive ammo and not cleaned properly. It had some pronounced pitting in the barrel but it still shot decent with jacketed ammo. Not so with lead as it tended to lead badly with lead bullets but still shot acceptable for close range work. I used mostly Bullseye or W231 and both worked well. Neither of mine were "target" revolvers but I would not want to be in front of one of them when things went bad. I loaded using .45acp data in .45AR cases and was well pleased with them. I no longer have either of them and mores the pity, I like ol war horses. my experience anyway, james

[ddixie884]

Revolvers that shoot .45acp are always interesting. As far as the binding I would recommend that you really clean under the extractor star scrub all the little corners with a brass brush and always turn the barrel up when you eject empty brass. almost all binding is foreign matter under the star or ejector rod unscrewed or bent. JMHO-YMMV...

[salvadore]

My 1917 has a bit of pitting also and has recently been treated with bore coat but not shot to see if it will smooth out. It has shot well in the past with hard cast bullets but hope to dial it in with a soft lead alloy with gas check or at least a few cylinder full of the harder 454190s before accuracy goes away. These are the only .454+ molds I have. I suppose unburnt powder under the ejection star could be the problem but haven't seen it.