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Thread: The foundation of a Scout Rifle

  1. #41
    Boolit Master


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    I have always questioned the Scout rifle. In large measure due to the short barrels and the forward mounted scope. It seemed more sensible to utilize an EoTech (or similar) sight to address the need for quick target acquisition on close in targets. A 1 MOA dot or even 2 MOA dot is sufficient to make accurate hits on game and men at long range without the need for a scope that affects the balance of the rifle and can snag stuff. I have the 512 and it is a bit heavy but more modern holographic sights are lighter and have better battery life.

    But if a .44 mag is under consideration, long range might be 200 yards??? Not a good choice IMHO. Why not a lever action .30/30? Longer range and more power. It can fire the Flex-tip bullets for added range and better ballistics. The down side of not being able to use stripper clips is still there, but it can be loaded via the side gate to top off the magazine if pressed into a defensive/aggressor role....which let's face it, is highly unlikely. And if needed for close quarters, the lever action will be faster than a bolt gun. It is a cheap platform with a lot of used ones available and does not scream NINJA. That might kill it though...LOL.

    Any "all-round" tool is not spectacular at every task. So reviewing your needs is more important than accepting the conclusions of even very talented gurus who may have similar needs but with different priorities. Is it primarily a game rifle that might be used to kill people if the SHTF, or a SHTF rifle to use on game?

    One reason I kept my .30/30 lever actions was to serve the role of the AR if the AR is banned. I may mistakenly believe that in dealing with two legged critters, delivering rounds faster is more important than accuracy and energy on target.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    I have a BB 94 in 356 Winchester set up with a Leupold 2X Scout scope mounted on the barrel. It is indeed very fast in operation and sufficiently precise for most of the ranges encountered here in AL. And, I think the 356 is a greatly under appreciated round. My Winchester and Marlin 336 will both function fine with converted 308 brass, so I can save my 356 brass. I bought a few hundred pieces several years ago when Winchester produced a run so should have plenty.
    Tony

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

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    I've been mulling this over a bit. Perhaps a modernized scout rifle could look something like this: AR variant of some personal choice/design in a caliber such as 300 Ham'r, 7.62x40, 7.62x39, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or such. Light weight. Flip up/down back up sights, installed, zeroed and folded down. A low power scope or red dot of choice on a tip off or fast remove mount. The primary sight would have to have correct eye relief to mount anywhere forward of the rear back up sight but still on upper receiver rail, not on extended rail. If the primary sight goes south, it can be removed quickly and continue mission. Co-witness sights could be a big plus depending on configuration. Ten round magazines preferred in this configuration.

    Rapid target acquisition, rapid reload capability, compact, light weight, easily transportable, capable of ranges up to 300 yards, perhaps more. Keep it simple.

    There's certainly enough stuff easily available to set one up.

    Just thinking out loud.

    I still think my buddy's 98 Mauser with a dedicated scout scope is the bee's knees, but it does lack rapid switch to a back up sight.
    It ain't rocket science, it's boolit science.

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master

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    [QUOTE=sundog;4814692]I've been mulling this over a bit. Perhaps a modernized scout rifle could look something like this: AR variant of some personal choice/design in a caliber such as 300 Ham'r, 7.62x40, 7.62x39, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or such. Light weight. Flip up/down back up sights, installed, zeroed and folded down. A low power scope or red dot of choice on a tip off or fast remove mount. The primary sight would have to have correct eye relief to mount anywhere forward of the rear back up sight but still on upper receiver rail, not on extended rail. If the primary sight goes south, it can be removed quickly and continue mission. Co-witness sights could be a big plus depending on configuration. Ten round magazines preferred in this configuration.

    Rapid target acquisition, rapid reload capability, compact, light weight, easily transportable, capable of ranges up to 300 yards, perhaps more. Keep it simple.

    There's certainly enough stuff easily available to set one up.

    Just thinking out loud.

    I still think my buddy's 98 Mauser with a dedicated scout scope is the bee's knees,

    You remember the old Weaver PIVOT base/rings? A set of those adapted to your scope base, perfect.
    Hell, I was there!

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by sundog View Post
    I've been mulling this over a bit. Perhaps a modernized scout rifle could look something like this: AR variant of some personal choice/design in a caliber such as 300 Ham'r, 7.62x40, 7.62x39, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or such. Light weight. Flip up/down back up sights, installed, zeroed and folded down. A low power scope or red dot of choice on a tip off or fast remove mount. The primary sight would have to have correct eye relief to mount anywhere forward of the rear back up sight but still on upper receiver rail, not on extended rail. If the primary sight goes south, it can be removed quickly and continue mission. Co-witness sights could be a big plus depending on configuration. Ten round magazines preferred in this configuration.

    Rapid target acquisition, rapid reload capability, compact, light weight, easily transportable, capable of ranges up to 300 yards, perhaps more. Keep it simple.

    There's certainly enough stuff easily available to set one up.

    Just thinking out loud.

    I still think my buddy's 98 Mauser with a dedicated scout scope is the bee's knees, but it does lack rapid switch to a back up sight.
    I've had this set up since '04 and used it for a deployment to Iraq on my M16A2. They kept wanting to give me an M4 as it was "easier to carry"....I told them no thanks as it wasn't the "carrying" that was important to me so no thanks I'd just keep my M16A2.....also told 'em I'd take an M14 though but that just got me a deer in the headlight look.....]…. I was able to test most such type sights and always came back to the Eotech mounted forward over the handguard. It was the fastest and surest of any such sights I tested. With the sight set that far out both eyes can be open and the dot is true moa with no parallax.

    Any way when I got home I put the EoTech on my own AR [M16 upper with new milspec M16A1 12" twist barrel (20") on a LMT lower]. With the iron zeroed at 250 m/yds I adjust the red dot to just sit on top of the front post when a proper sight alignment is used with the iron sights. That gives a co-axial sight arraignment with the dot then zeroed at 200m/yds. In use I just bring the sight up to eye level looking over the top of the rear aperture, put the dot on target and press the trigger. A center mass aim hits "E" and "F" targets out to 300 yds. A neck or head level aim puts the bullets on target to 400 yds and aiming a foot or so over the top puts the bullets on and "E" target at 500 yards. I've never had a problem with the AA batteries as I changed them out before every mission. Now I've been using the lithium AAs and change them out every couple years..... If the batteries were to go dead or the EoTeck TU the iron sights are right there and zeroed with no need to remove anything...…

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Larry Gibson

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    ― Nikola Tesla

  6. #46
    Boolit Master


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    I experimented with the EoTech 512 mounted on a trap gun.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I only have the photo above but also tried mounting it further forward. It was as fast as shooting using beads with both eyes open. I found less talented shooters shot better with the EoTech and one advantage is no effect of cross eye dominance...a real problem for lady shooters who are predominantly left eye dominant. I always shoot shotguns, iron sight rifles and pistol with both eyes open.

    I was averaging just under my normal scores (AA average) using the EoTech but only used it for about 10 weeks. I was experimenting with the old adage that the shotgun is not aimed but pointed...and determined it was another old wives tale. You can (and should) aim the shotgun...but maybe that is just me as I am a rifle shooter anyways. The main problem I has was tyring to mount it to the K-80 rib. Never could get my mickey mouse way of mounting it to last for more than about 1500 rounds.

    IMHO, the EoTech type sight will be faster than even a low powered front mounted scope, and the EoTech can be mounted wherever you feel comfortable with it with no loss of performance. You will never lose the "eye box" using it. Put the circle on the target if close, or the dot on the target if far, and the target is hit.

    I plan on trying out the newer Sig Romeo 5 sight to see how it works. It is inexpensive, light, and has excellent battery life with motion on activation.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master
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    So the carbine length barrel/collapsible stock setup on a AR receiver gets you pretty close to the length & weight requirements to qualify as a "Scout Rifle". Add some modern optics that allow for fast close in work and decent long range work and we're almost there.
    The 5.56 NATO may be a little light for the late Lt. Col. Cooper's criteria but the 6.8 Remington SPC might make the cut.

    A carbine length AR platform rifle would be fairly weather resistant due to the aluminum alloy receiver and plastic furniture. Add some high tech coating to the steel parts and the rest of the rifle would be rust resistant. Drop some weight with carbon fiber stocks, eliminate the forward assist, bayonet lug, flash hider and you could put some extra weight in the barrel and bolt carrier.

    Might be the modern "Scout Rifle" ???? I don't know?

    I'm fairly confident I could achieve good results with a Sako 85 Finnlight in 7mm-08. Stainless barrel, synthetic stock, detachable magazine 2.8 kilos without a scope just barely over 1 meter in length.
    It would probably end up over 3.0 kilos with optics mounted but it would be weather resistant and almost make weight.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
    I have a BB 94 in 356 Winchester set up with a Leupold 2X Scout scope mounted on the barrel. It is indeed very fast in operation and sufficiently precise for most of the ranges encountered here in AL. And, I think the 356 is a greatly under appreciated round. My Winchester and Marlin 336 will both function fine with converted 308 brass, so I can save my 356 brass. I bought a few hundred pieces several years ago when Winchester produced a run so should have plenty.
    Tony
    Cooper touched on the M94 as a scout rifle several times. It does make for a very quick handling and accurate M94. Here's mine;

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    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  9. #49
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    I could never get used to a scope that far forward. I have a new Ruger 450 bushmaster scout and I’ll be mounting the scope on the receiver/action slots. I don’t know how it would make quicker site acquisition with the scopes further away with magnification. I’ve tried it many times and can’t get used to it. Two power is about the only way and it’s still a pain in the butt for me to see for quick site acquisition. If I throw a red dot Forward on it I’m good to go since there is zero magnification but defeats the purpose for shooting long range accurately in my opinion.

  10. #50
    Learning quite a lot from this thread. Just brought home a Norwegian Krag in 6.5x55 & it very
    well could end up as a scout rifle.
    The insulated state in which nature has placed the American continent should so far avail it that no spark of war kindled in the other quarters of the globe should be wafted across the wide oceans which separate us from them." -- Thomas Jefferson

  11. #51
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeettx View Post
    Remington 600 Mohawk or Rem 660 in 308, scope mounted forward
    NO extra money needed to be spent

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/98426768...-Scope-Use.htm

    https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=101261154

    Mike
    Yep pretty much already set for caliber length and weight . Also throw the Rem model 7 stainless up as an option
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    I defer to Mr Gibson on scope/red dot location. And as you say, ease of carry is trumped by need of use.

    Larry, nice write up, and thanks for the pics.
    It ain't rocket science, it's boolit science.

  13. #53
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    I’ll keep my scope mounted real word on my Remington 600 243... God I love that rifle and keep forgetting I have it! It needs to go back to Arizona with me for a walking predator rifle next time I go. My buddy just bought a twin to it out in Phoenix from his local gun shop for $300! I just about died. It was missing the sights but other than that it’s a clean gun. Apparently it had been sitting in the shop for some time there and nobody had any interest in it believe it or not. I love gun shopping out there because there’s a lot of stuff you can get great deals on. It almost seems like if it’s not an AR or a heavy barreled long range rifle nobody has any interest in It out there. He bought a 35 Rem. In 336 marlin 100 th anniversary edition lever action that look like brand new for $180 about 10 or 15 years ago and he sold it to me for 200 after I got sick of it. I also picked up a used Smith and Wesson night guard 329NG for $425 out there a year after they came out.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master


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    All can feel free to keep the scope mounted conventionally if that's what suits your fancy. I don't believe anyone here said or even insinuated a scout set up is "best" or what everyone should have. We're just discussing the merits and how they fit some needs for those who set them up correctly and use them correctly. I still have mostly conventionally scoped rifles with low end 2.5X up through a couple "crew served" scopes; Leupodls, a couple Redfields and target scopes....one of which is a top end Night Force. I'm certainly not saying any of my scout scoped rifles are capable of doing what those scoped rifles are capable of. However, those rifles can not do what the scout rifles can either. I'm at a stage and position of life I don't have to have one or two rifle/scope combinations that can do a bit of everything..... somewhat. The scouts I have serve specific purposes just as does the rifle with the 8x32 Night force scope on it does or my varmint rifles, my match rifles or my 30x60 XCB rifle, etc. which all have conventionally mounted scopes.

    BTW; let me add that a forward mounted scope does not a scout rifle make. Many forward mounted scopes are put on milsurps just for ease of aiming w/o having to modify the rifle. Almost all of the mounts we see for those put the forward mounted scope to high. Most who criticize scout rifles have tried one of those and "don't find them useful"...… A true bolt or lever action scout rifle will have the scope mounted as low as possible with the ocular lens over the front receiver ring. Mounted higher or further forward makes it difficult and slow to use. That type of forward mounted scope is of only limited use and really not better than a conventional mounted scope.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #55
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Yep, that’s my problem. I just have a hard time with a forward mounted scopes. I’ve had a few and find it slow and difficult to find something in the small field even at low power. To each their own though. Just can’t get used to them. It reminds me of A scope on a pistol as well. I tried that too and not a fan. I switched to red dots and i’m golden with them. So maybe it would count if I put a red dot forward on my 450BM scout rifle?

    I really think they look neat mounted forward until I have to look through them to make a shot.lol

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    I had a forward mounted scope on my Garand and it worked well. Much better than the old side mount.

    But, I find it just as easy to acquire close in targets with a conventional scope mount location. It is the magnification of the scope and distance to the target (and target size) that need to be considered.

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Larry stated it succinctly, ".....I don't believe anyone here said or even insinuated a scout set up is "best" or what everyone should have. We're just discussing the merits and how they fit some needs for those who set them up correctly and use them correctly. ..."

    The Scout Rifle is just another tool in the toolbox.

  18. #58
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    This is what I found searching the web:

    Col. Cooper began developing the concept of the scout rifle in the late 1980s as “the one rifle you would have if you could only have just one rifle.” It might not be as accurate at distance as a precision rifle, put as much lead downrange as fast as a pure fighting rifle, or be as light as a pack rifle, but was designed to do almost everything relatively well and be a light, and compact weapon that could go almost anywhere.

    There may be more specific descriptions and hopefully someone can post something better?

    The name "scout" implies a lone gunman. He needs a gun that makes carrying as effortless as possible. Tasked more with recon duties than fighting duties, but able to engage if/when necessary. Possibly acting as a mid range sniper? Able to function in close combat if necessary, but smarter to escape and evade if possible.

    Not bad attributes for a hunting rifle...except for the running away part, unless you piss off a bear. LOL
    Don Verna

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  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Yes, that was Cooper's basic concept and while I appreciated most of it I never felt the weight, oal and barrel lengths were that important to me. Thus I've set up my "scouts" to suit my needs for their intended purpose.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  20. #60
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    I am surprised nobody has mention the Ruger 77 short action. Already available in appropriate cartridges. A short barrels .308 or similar with an additional express rib for a forward mount leaves both options open. To me, the integral action scope bases are awesome and durable.

    The .44 Mag great shortcoming is that the ammo weights so much per cartridge. And they are bulky too.

    I have an older Ruger M77 RSI in .250 Savage that I would like to have a express rib with scope ring recessed mounted on it. It may weigh a little too much. But it will be very similar to the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer, which Jeff Cooper also mentioned as being an inspiration to his Scout concept.

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