The foundation of a Scout Rifle

[McFred]

IWHAT ACTION WOULD YOU USE FOR THE FOUNDATION MEETING THE ABOVE CRITERIA ?

A Kimber Montana would get you a long ways toward your goal. Chop the barrel, add sights/EER scope and an additional swivel stud for a Rhodesian sling and Voila! The only shortcomings are that the blind magazine will not fit 5 rounds and the cost to acquire a Montana.

[Petrol & Powder]

McFred - I think if I started cutting on a Kimber Montana I would cry; but you're right- that rifle has a lot of the needed attributes.

[McFred]

A Kimber Montana is just a rifle. They're making more of them every day.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think the most controversial aspect of the Scout Rifle concept is the forward mounted scope, and I'm not totally sold on that myself.

The advantage of the forward mounted scope is improved access to the action. If you're not using stripper clips, the forward mounted scope becomes less important. A rifle equipped with a forward mounted scope is still faster to reload even with loose individual rounds due to the better access to the top of the magazine. However, if the rifle has a detachable magazine, the forward mounted scope loses all of its appeal. I think Jeff Cooper may have been a little too focused on the use of stripper clips but that was likely due to the times he lived in.

Leaving the scope issue aside for a moment, some of the other criteria are worthy of consideration:

An overall length of less than 1 meter (39.37"). Even in today's world of collapsible stock AR platforms; this is still a pretty good standard.

Total weight not exceeding 3.5 kilos (roughly 7 3/4lbs) This is where a lot of the older military rifles struggle to compete.

As weather resistant as possible. This means stainless steel or some durable finish and generally a synthetic stock.

Capable of at least 2 M.O.A. accuracy and an effective range of 450 meters.

Jeff Cooper was a man of his time and times change. Materials have improved and manufacturing methods have evolved. However, despite the changes over time, a lot of those original criteria still hold value.

[Petrol & Powder]

A Kimber Montana is just a rifle. They're making more of them every day.

Agreed but my wallet can only take so much abuse

[McFred]

The heart wants what the heart wants. Plenty of ways to justify the expense especially since Montanas can be found used for ~$900 shipped. Cutting on a stainless Winchester M70 Classic is in that same ballpark.

IIRC the 3.5kg limit was for the "super scout" classifcation e.g. the .350 Rem Mag cartridges, everything else was 3kg goal all-up: rifle, sights, sling and ammo. "Making weight" will be difficult with an M70 without some significant surgery.

[Petrol & Powder]

I believe you're correct about the weight limits. Either category (3 or 3.5 Kg) is tough to meet.

[arlon]

What's the kick requirement for this short barreled, poorly scoped, light weight rifle that's supposed to shoot 2 moa at 450 yards? And use stripper clips so you can get off how many rounds in what time frame? Is it supposed hold 2 moa after firing several stripper clips? Is the scout idea a military requirement or a practical hunting one?

My shoulder MIGHT could handle something like 7mm-08 for awhile but I would not even try a .350 rem mag. I still like the Ruger 77/44 but I think you could do everything with a simple plastic stocked Savage Axis. Cut the barrel of 6.5 or 7mm and it should make weight and length and still be bearable to shoot. Maybe start with a heavy barrel and cut it down to 18", heavy barrel (less or no taper) would just be easier to get a scope mounted on. Box magazines might be as easy to reload as stripper clips. Bass pro/Cabela's had the heavy barrel model 12 on sale for $369 last week. I'd bet even at 18" the 6.5 or 7mm would hold close to minute of milk jug at 450 yards. Just looking at the .308 Axis I have sitting beside me ($160 in a pawn shop) and thinking it could be a handy light carbine with very little work but it sure would kick the snot out of me (I'm pretty light framed and zero padding). An old Remington 788 in 7mm-08 might make a nice starting platform. They came with 18" barrels. Basically start with an old school "mountain gun" and put the scope in the wrong place. (-:}

[Petrol & Powder]

Arlon - I'm not in complete agreement with the late Lt. Colonel Cooper but I think his concept of a "Scout Rifle" was more about a universal weapon than anything else. The Scout Rifle is not intended to be a primary hunting rifle or a primary self-defense weapon but rather a tool that does many things well.
If you read Cooper's writings, in particular "The Art of the Rifle", you will get a glimpse at his mindset. He refers to the rifle in the first chapter as "The Queen". He saw a rifle as the pinnacle of personal weapons and this is coming from a man that knew more about handguns than most.

The Scout Rifle doesn't need to shoot rapid fire strings that exceed the capacity of the magazine, every single time it is fired - but it is capable of being rapidly reloaded if needed.
The Scout Rifle isn't called upon to make 450 yard shots every time it is fired, but it may be called upon to do that occasionally.
The Scout Rifle doesn't need to make snap-shots at close ranges under extremely tight time limits every time, but it is capable of that if needed.

The Scout Rifle is a personal weapon that can be an effective hunting weapon over a large range of conditions and a Scout Rifle can be a personal defense weapon over a large range of conditions.

It is designed to be easily carried and to fill MANY roles in a multitude of conditions.
There are a LOT of rifles that will surpass its capabilities in particular roles.

[Rick Hodges]

What people miss when discussing the forward mounted scope is the speed to bring it into action. Once you use and practice a bit shooting with both eyes open, target acquisition is much faster than with open, peep, or conventional scope mounting.

I have a 2.5X Leupold mounted "guide style" on my Marlin GS. There is a learning curve. It feels awkward at first, but I can tell you that there is no comparison in the speed with which you can get an accurate shot off compared to receiver sights or conventional scope. Think shotgun wing shooting fast.

The system is about more than stripper clips and magazines. The aiming system is designed for a rifleman to put accurate hits on targets within 300 meters, rapidly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

P&P: The Ruger 77/44 with a simple TRS 25 mounted forward on the receiver, is exactly what you are looking for as long as shots don't exceed 200 yards which they probably won't. I shoot my 1894 CB at short range silhouette events often and it will knock down a 55lb Ram at 200 M easily.

The only problem with the gun is that they are limited to 1.610 in COAL by the magazine. Plenty of Boolits will work and when stoked up to 1600-1800 FPS you have a real formidable gun. I have a Lee 310 gr boolit mould that has two crimp grooves and the upper one will make the OAL.

You can also load .44 Specials up to Keith's Standards which will fit in the magazine.

If your SWC boolits stick out too far to go in the magazine you can single load them and have shorter rounds as backups.

A stainless one would fill the bill for a Woods Rifle where you live and be a good fit for any environment.

You might see if someone would let you shoot their's so you could see how handy they are.

You add a .44 Magnum/Special Pistol and you've got a system that will take anything in the lower US. The ideal combo for anywhere that is wet or humid.

On another Note: Glad you survived the Gun Holocaust in Richmond last Monday. The Hate Channels (fake news) were all predicting Civil War II, but somehow it didn't materialize. Too bad for them but since nobody with a brain believes anything they say, it was predictable.

I have four rules that completely define Liberal Behavior that I came up with a few years ago.

Understanding Liberal Behavior:

Rule #1 Liberals screw up everything they touch.
Rule #2 What ever they accuse you of, they are already doing.
Rule #3 Liberals will lie about anything, no matter how insignificant
Rule #4 When all else fails, they call you a Racist!

I had business cards made up (Vista Print , $9.99 per 500) I handed out @400 at the SHOT Show last week.

Nobody gave one back to me!

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Petrol & Powders post #29 gives an excellent explanation.

Rick Hodges post #30 also points out the most overlooked and important aspect of a properly set up scout rifle; "What people miss when discussing the forward mounted scope is the speed to bring it into action. Once you use and practice a bit shooting with both eyes open, target acquisition is much faster than with open, peep, or conventional scope mounting."

As to "it changes the balance of the rifle"......all rifles have a difference balance. It's simply a matter of becoming accustomed (not really too difficult) to the scout rifles characteristics. I find sporter weight rifles with gawd awful oversized "sniper scopes" on them to be more disconcerting than a low powered forward mounted scout scope. Also both Burris and Vortex make excellent 2x7 scout scopes. on 2X they are every bit as quick and useful as Cooper originally intended. On the higher powers they are as good as conventional receiver mounted scopes. If you can't hit a target with 7X you aren't going to hit it...…

No, all my rifles are not "scouts" but I have come to really appreciate the concept for it's intended and very useful purpose.

[Tatume]

Glad you survived the Gun Holocaust in Richmond last Monday.

Because of my handicap I wasn't able to go. So I sent money instead. My friend went, and told me they put 10,000 of them in a six-foot high, locked, fenced enclosure. The were no relief facilities, none. No food or water. They were kept in there for 10 hours. There were snipers with rifles trained on the crowd all the way around the perimeter. What do you suppose was the hoped-for outcome?

[skeettx]

Remington 600 Mohawk or Rem 660 in 308, scope mounted forward
NO extra money needed to be spent

https://www.gunsamerica.com/98426768...-Scope-Use.htm

https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=101261154

Mike

[Larry Gibson]

Originally Posted by Larry Gibson
Glad you survived the Gun Holocaust in Richmond last Monday.[/I]

Tatume;4814008]Because of my handicap I wasn't able to go. So I sent money instead. My friend went, and told me they put 10,000 of them in a six-foot high, locked, fenced enclosure. The were no relief facilities, none. No food or water. They were kept in there for 10 hours. There were snipers with rifles trained on the crowd all the way around the perimeter. What do you suppose was the hoped-for outcome?

If the question is directed at me I'm not sure of the relevance to this thread?

[Petrol & Powder]

This is a good thread, I appreciate the feedback.

To address a few points: The 44 mag is a formidable cartridge when used in a carbine and at ranges suitable for the cartridge. I'm not discounting it.

The forward mounted scope does offer a lot in terms of speed at close ranges and enough precision for the longer ranges, within the roles that a Scout Rifle is called upon to fulfill. I think it was a good compromise for the time in which Cooper suggested it and I think it holds up well in today's world.

I don't know if the current military M4 carbines, with their collapsible stocks, short barrels, lightweight construction and modern optics are benefitting from some Scout Rifle DNA or if the Scout Rifle benefitted from some CAR-15 DNA, but all of those types share some common traits. They are rifles capable of very fast and accurate work up close and yet still retain the ability to engage targets at greater distances. The major difference is the caliber. I'm not saying the current M4 carbine is a direct descendant of the Scout Rifle but I do think it was influenced by the Scout Rifle.

Submachine guns and pistol caliber carbines have always suffered at longer ranges and full sized rifles can be cumbersome for close in work where speed equals survival.

[Petrol & Powder]

Randy, concerning the events in Richmond last Monday, yes the liberals predicted mayhem and were disappointed when it didn't occur.

The media is despicable. By the way, not only was the crowd exceptionally well behaved, THEY CLEANED UP BEFORE THEY DEPARTED. When the left "demonstrates" (which usually looks more like a riot), they incite violence and they leave a mess. Again, the media failed to report the events accurately. In fact, when the pro-gun crowd turned out to be peaceful, law abiding citizens; the media immediately went back to talking about the royal family, sports, entertainment, the impeachment that no-one cares about and the fact that it snowed in Newfoundland .......in January ! (shocking)

You have 4 rules for liberals, I have only one: Liberals are driven purely by emotion and never by logic.

Tatume, Unarmed individuals were allowed to enter the grounds of the Capitol and they were not held there for 10 hours. People could leave but they couldn't re-enter without being screened again. And "They" (the government) didn't PUT anyone into the secured Capitol grounds. People could choose to enter the Capitol grounds if they wished to. And yes, there was a fence to delineate the secured area on the grounds from the adjoining city streets. I suppose you could label that as a enclosure but it was not a concentration camp that people were forced to enter and then held against their will.

And it's a bit of hyperbole to say: "....There were snipers with rifles trained on the crowd all the way around the perimeter. What do you suppose was the hoped-for outcome? "
I'm sure law enforcement placed sniper teams in elevated positions overlooking the crowd. It would have been foolish not to take that precaution. I doubt they had "rifles trained on the crowd". And the outcome they were hoping for was exactly the one they got - a peaceful exercise of first and second amendment rights.

[Tatume]

While my response to Gibson may have been overly emotional, I do not believe the governor was hoping for a peaceful outcome. He was hoping for violence, so he could use it as evidence to support his cause.

[Tim357]

What Sundog said...….

What they both said..

[Petrol & Powder]

While my response to Gibson may have been overly emotional, I do not believe the governor was hoping for a peaceful outcome. He was hoping for violence, so he could use it as evidence to support his cause.

I agree the governor, and a lot of other liberals, were hoping for hoping for violence.

I am proud of the good citizens that made their voices heard in a peaceful manner.