Need info on .401 Win. SL

[Blackwater]

I'm working on a M-1910 Win. in .401 WSL caliber, and got to wondering if it can be made to shoot again. IIRC, the case is unique, and shares no dimensions with any other ctg. However, I think (?) I remember that the .35 Rem. is too big. The .35 has a case head dia. of .460" nominal. Also noticed that the 7.62x39's head dia. is .445, and wondered if that might be used to form new brass. The case length of the .401 is 1.495" trim to, and 1.500" max. Looks like it must headspace on the case mouth, like the .45 ACP, but I don't recollect that for sure.

Can anyone provide any info on forming cases for this old gun? Any info on the gun would be appreciated, also. I'm just kinda' impressed with this old gun. For the curious, the fella' who brought it in found it under a bridge, laying on top of some supports. Can't help but wonder if it has a body on it. Why else would someone hide it like that??? Looked up the serial # and it was made in 1911, the 2nd year of production. Can't guess when it was laid up under that bridge, though, but it was protected pretty good from the elements, apparently. It's in pretty decent shape. The nickel steel receiver had some pitting, more than would be expected from the "freckling" so characteristic of nickel steels, but not anywhere near what I'd have feared it would have. I've sanded out most of the pits, and it's actually going to finish up pretty good. The forend was split, and I'll be fixing that this coming week. Other than that, the wood's actually in decent shape, and I'll use Tru Oil on it. I've found a new respect for Tru Oil after learning to use a polishing wheel with an unstitched clean buffing wheel to polish down to the wood. Produces a very respectable looking finish.

I'm new at this gunsmithing thing, at least for other folks. Have done stuff for friends, and friends of friends, but not commercially. One thing I'm learnin' fast - this work gets real interesting real fast sometimes.

This old .401's really captured my interest, and I don't know what the fella plans for it, but I'm certainly going to put in a bid for him to let me know if he's gonna' sell it. I've really taken a shine to this gun. He's the boss, and wanted a complete refin, but I'm trying to leave it in a condition where if a subsequent owner wants to redo it as originally issued, they'll have that option. For now, it'll get a good hot blue, and the Tru Oil on the stock, which I think is at least respectable, if it's got to be done. Just want to leave all options open to any subsequent owners, too. The gun's a lot simpler inside than I'd originally suspected it might be. Looks like a very reliable design, given good ammo.

Just hope 7.62x39's will be close enough to use for new brass?

[Bret4207]

Old Western Scrounger had 401 ammo a while back. they went through some changes and you'll ahve to hunt around to find them. Also, either Handloaders Digest or Gun Digest had a Holt Bodinson article on the 401 a few years back. If you can locate a listing of articles you amy be able to find it. If I get a chance I'll see if I have it. Maybe something as simple a a "Google" search would bring results. Neat rifles.

[Urny]

From John J. Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions:

"MAKE FROM: 9,3x72R. Turn rim to 457" dia. and back chamfer. Cut case to
1.55" and taper expand to .410" dia. Trim to length and size in .401 die with the expander removed. I.D. neck ream. Chamfer and F/L size. Fireform in chamber."

That sounds a lot of work. Finding the Old Western Scrounger sounds better.

[45 2.1]

Cases, the easy way:
30-30, cut to slightly over length, reduce rim diameter. fireform, trim, load. Fairly simple and works. Minture lathes are the berries for ammo making projects. I've been hunting a 1910 Win for a long time with no results except one that had been dropped on its muzzle with disasterous results. Have molds and dies waiting on it too.

[Ross]

Buffalo has brass:

401 Winchester Self Loading Cases*
Brass / .36-.41 Caliber
Item #: 401WSL
Your Price: $1.15 / Each
Unit:
Each ($1.15)
20 ($20.00)
50 ($44.00)
100 ($83.00)
This brass uses a RCBS #32 shell holder, item number RCB9232.

Howell suggests either .35 Remington or .303 Savage for a parent case.

Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

[Blackwater]

Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. 45/2.1, that .30/30 brass seems like the best way to go, I think. Will pass on the info if I can't get this gun myself, which I doubt I'll be able to do. I'd just like to see it shooting again, even if it can't be mine.

[Chuck White]

You can make 401 WSL brass from 35 Rem! Just trim to length!
The 401 headspaces on the rim. It's a semi-rimmed case!

I looked at a box of 401 WSL loaded ammo at a local gun shop here a while back and the headstamp read 303 British! These were trimmed to length and then part of the rim was removed!

[45 2.1]

I also forgot to say that 7.62x39 brass expanded and trimmed makes perfect brass. Lots of options for you.

[Bent Ramrod]

You might want to get one of those net brass catchers from Midway if you plan to shoot the .401. It does indeed hit "like the hammer of Thor" but it slings those expensive cases out pretty hard and far, too.

The standard cast bullet for the .401 is the obsolete Ideal 410426, but a friend of mine has shot 41 magnum cast gas-check bullets in his reformed cases. (He bought the loaded ammo from some guy at a gun show, so I don't know what the load was.) As I recall, the proper bullet size is .406" Accuracy of his rifle is about par with that of his Ruger .44 Magnum carbine.

[Andy_P]

I'm making this into a Methusaleh thread for sure (2 1/2 years between posts), but I have some recent experience with the 401 WSL I think is worth sharing. I've made brass from five different cartridge cases and all work fine.

As far as "fit" (closeness to original), I'd rank them:

1 - 35 Rem
2 - 303 Brit (a tie with #1)
3 - 7.62x39
4 - 30-30
5 - 6.8 mm SPC

As far as amount of work and tools required (easiest first):

1 - 6.8mm SPC
2 - 30-30
3 - 35 Rem
4 - 303 Brit
5 - 7.62x39

[brakeline]

The 30-30 and 6.8 Rem case bodys are both a good bit undersize (the 6.8 Rem is just the old .25 Rem & .30 Rem case, which was a rimless version of the 30-30). The others are oversize and really take some power to swage down (I've only actually tried the .35 Rem case, in a special two-stage die that RCBS once made for this purpose.) I've never seen anyone suggest the .220 Swift case and I wonder why - maybe it's just too precious to start with(?), but it's a much closer fit - only about half the swaging required as with the .35 Rem, AND the rim is about right. Has anyone tried this?

[Andy_P]

Yes, the 30-30 and 6.8mm SPC are both undersized by about 10 thou at the base, but I have never encountered a problem with that in the 401 WSL or some other chamberings I've made brass up for (8x58R from 8x56 Mannlicher being another example). A round of aluminum tape on the first firing has always ensured that they form symmetrically. A lot of work saved in either swaging or turning down the base diameter.

Good point on the 220 Swift - I didn't try it, but only because I didn't have any. Neither have I tried the 6.5x50mm Arisaka (6.5mm Japanese), nor the 6.5x52 Carcano, both of which seem good candidates and are available from Grafs and elsewhere.

[luckysarge]

Bob Shell of Apache Junction Arizona sells reloads for the 401 if you want shoot a few through it and get brass built up instead of reforming your own. I found brass ar $1.15 a piece but Bob threw me a deal for 100 rounds already loaded for $1.50 a round. Can't reload it for that and I have cases TO reload now. His e-mail is rel4350@aol.com. He has a legit reloading business

[missionary5155]

Good morning The NRA fact book gives the SAAMI max dimensions for the 401 WSL as:
.458 rim
.435 Head
.432 mouth
.407bullet
1.500case length
2.005 overall

[Andy_P]

Finally got ahold of some Starline 414 Super Mag. The perfect base for 401 WSL - reduce the rim to 0.458" and the length to 1.500". Presto - done.

The 414 Super Mag is to 401 WSL what the 357 Maximum is to 351 WSL.

[Andy_P]

I have found after a bit of experimentation that H4227 (and I imagine IMR4227) is THE powder for these rounds and guns. Right up to full cases with bullets weighing 180 grs (in the 351 WSL) and 210 grs (in the 401 WSL) are accurate and cycle the action effectively.

I tried Unique and Blue Dot and observed an interesting phenonenom:

- too low a charge with either powder (and H4227) and the action won't cycle (already widely reported); but
- too high a charge with those powders (both faster than H4227) and the action won't cycle. I had expected a more vigorous cycling, but not lock-up.

I theorize that the faster pressure curve causes the cartridge walls to grip the chamber too early in the extraction cycle, effectively locking the action. So while the maximum pressure is less than or the same as for H4227, where it occurs makes a difference.

[BerdanIII]

From Ideal Handbook No. 38:
250-gr. lead plain base #410426
2400 - 18.0 start 1430 fps - 23.0 max 1700 fps
4227 - 19.0 start 1450 fps - 27.5 max 1850 fps
Unique - 13.7 1550 fps

200-gr. jacketed
2400 - 19.0 start 1595 fps - 24.7 max 2060 fps
4227 - 29.0 start 1965 fps - 31.0 max 2100 fps
SR4759 - 20.0 1525 fps
Unique - 15.2 1785 fps

250-gr. jacketed
2400 - 18.0 start 1430 fps - 23.3 max 1765 fps
4227 - 19.0 start 1445 fps - 27.5 max 1850 fps
SR4759 - 19.0 1425 fps
Unique - 13.7 1525 fps

From Complete Guide to Handloading:
200-gr. SP seating depth 0.217"
2400 - 13.0 - 990 fps
2400 - 19.0 - 1525 fps
2400 - 24.7 - 2060 fps
Unique - 10.0 - 1290 fps
Unique - 15.2 - 1785 fps
4227 - 31.0 - 2100 fps (s/d 0.200")

250-gr. SP seating depth 0.323"
2400 - 11.0 - 720 fps
2400 - 18.0 - 1430 fps
2400 - 23.3 - 1765 fps
Unique - 9.0 - 1090 fps
Unique - 13.7 - 1525 fps
4227 - 19.0 - 1445 fps (s/d 0.300")
4227 - 27.5 - 1850 fps (s/d 0.300")

250-gr. lead (mould not specified) seating depth 0.292"
2400 - 12.0 - 1050 fps
2400 - 15.0 - 1285 fps
2400 - 18.0 - 1480 fps
Unique - 10.0 - 1330 fps

I doubt that the lighter Unique and 2400 loads could cycle the action, but they would save wear and tear on the cases by not launching them into the weeds.

From "The 401 Lives!", H. Bodinson, Handloader's Digest, 12th Ed.

"To make a long story short, #2400, while accurate, proved more dirty than I like in a blowback action. It just never seems to burn completely in any straight-bodied pistol-sized case I have ever loaded. Firing it in the Model 1910 left the action area full of unburned powder particles. IMR-4227, however, worked perfectly. It produced good accuracy, excellent velocity, reliable operation of the 1910 action and was very clean burning."

"Using Bell or Sailer (note: made from .35 Remington case) brass trimmed to 1.50 inches, the three brands of available jacketed bullets seated to an overall cartridge length of 2 inches, IMR-4227 powder, and Remington 9½ primers, my final factory duplication loads turned out to be the following:
200 -gr. jacketed bullet
29.0 grs. IMR-4227 / 2040 fps
250-gr. jacketed bullet
27.0 grs. IMR-4227 / 1880 fps"

I saw one of these rifles hung on the wall next to a broken window in the old county jail at Archer City, Texas (tourist, not inmate). It and several other vintage rifles nearby were rusted to tomato stake status. That and the gallows set up in the stairwell in the corner of building (the landing was the gallows platform and was designed to break away, starting the soon-to-be-departed on his short trip) are about the only things I remember from the unofficial tour.

[NYBushBro]

I just got a Model 1910 .401 WSL and am trying to locate a used Lyman 410426 mold to cast bullets for it... can anyone help?

[Buckshot]

..............Graf & Son is advertising new made .401 Winchester brass.

.............Buckshot

[wazza2222]

Bertram Brass is making it too, I got mine for about $NZ1 a case... (roughly US75c) he posted to me direct!
I am going to try sized .41 Magnum slugs to start as moulds appear to be unobtanium here in New Zealand
CH4 sizing dies... cheap and fast service!

Waz