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Thread: 44-77 sharps?

  1. #81
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Just anneal the necks and put a slight roller crimp on the neck that will stretch the neck but don't over do the crimp.

  2. #82
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    There are things available. I don't know much about any of them but TexasMac has a very good article on the various methods. I have planned on making up a case "nibbing" tool for use in a lathe. That would give me options for other cases once the tooling is made. I have a bunch of .40-65 brass that is about the same amount sort. Short brass gives me paper rings and while they seem not to cause any real problems they are a PITA.

    Brass is pretty easy to work with when you have the tooling. It does work harden rather quickly and should be annealed often if your moving a lot of it around.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  3. #83
    Boolit Mold
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    A little update on my "old roller" pp loading quest:

    Talked to my good friend who I acquired the .44 Remington from just a couple of days ago, and he told me there was a history to the rifle that he tried to get the official paperwork for it back then when he got it years ago (and quite a few years ago now, at that). The gun originally was owned by a family who had a relative who used the gun in the West back "In The Day," and he (my bud when he got the gun) saw a family picture of the rifle leaning up against a wagon wheel, with a cartridge belt, and the wagon stacked with buffalo hides. My good friend also said he could recognize the rifle by the grain in the stock, and my buddy builds very nice m.l. guns, besides, and his scrutiny of stock wood undeniably verified the claim. I believe him, and what a very, very cool thing.

    My friend tried every avenue to get the provenance from the prior owner, but couldn't make it happen (bad communication glitches; phone numbers disconnected and things just falling through the cracks, and lost). Long story short, the story behind the gun is a good one, but can't be absolutely proven; mystiques are ok my me, anyway. I do trust my friend with the info he gave me, as he is a gunsmith, total gun-crank buddy of mine who I believe wholeheartedly. All the background on the gun, though a cool story, only adds to the great thing that I own it now. Ha!

    My bud also told me that at some point back in the past, the gun was re-barreled with a factory, period Remington barrel, marked 44 just in front of the forearm nosecap. It also has the number 1371 on the bottom barrel flat under the forearm. So, don't know when the gun was re-barreled, but to me, it really doesn't matter. I just love the old thing.

    Also, I tried to run (gently, no scratches!) a .439" pin gauge into the bore from the muzzle for a first time measurement; didn't go. I am waiting for two pin gauges that I ordered that will measure .437" and .438" to see how they might (or might not) fit. And just for a try, I ran a .41 Rem Mag, unsized, fired case into the muzzle just to see how it fit, and it did, and the case fit a little bit loosely, which measured RIGHT at, .436." I know, bubba deal there. But I got somewhat of an idea of the bore measurement until I can be more accurate before I have a visit with Steve Brooks (and a fresh slugging session, too).

    So this is interesting; old factory re-barreled #1 sporting roller with a history (when re-barreled; never know?), with a near .43 Spanish bore (?), and I DO have a set of .43 Spanish Lee dies. The best thing with this rifle is that I don't have to have this gun up and running with any kind of a deadline. PURE FUN from my end... Got my .44 pp template from BACO, Seth Cole 55 8lb. paper ordered and coming, and all the time the Good Lord will let me have building an accurate pp load. If that bore measures out @ say, .437" or .438," would it still be considered a .44/77? Ha! I don't care!

    I just got done reading a post on this forum yesterday that sums up all of this B.P.C.R. wonderful sickness we have (that I have anyway). It's by a guy with the handle of Hiwall55 (back in Dec. of '19), and he said in a post, "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." Then, "Good luck, Bill." I think I'll make a nicely lettered and framed wall hangered quote of those words right above my reloading bench to always keep me focused on this unbelievable journey I'm (we're) on.

    This journey, quest, will be continued... and again, thanks for ALL of your help.

  4. #84
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    Just anneal the necks and put a slight roller crimp on the neck that will stretch the neck but don't over do the crimp.
    With greasers or PPB?

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinert View Post
    A little update on my "old roller" pp loading quest:

    Talked to my good friend who I acquired the .44 Remington from just a couple of days ago, and he told me there was a history to the rifle that he tried to get the official paperwork for it back then when he got it years ago (and quite a few years ago now, at that). The gun originally was owned by a family who had a relative who used the gun in the West back "In The Day," and he (my bud when he got the gun) saw a family picture of the rifle leaning up against a wagon wheel, with a cartridge belt, and the wagon stacked with buffalo hides. My good friend also said he could recognize the rifle by the grain in the stock, and my buddy builds very nice m.l. guns, besides, and his scrutiny of stock wood undeniably verified the claim. I believe him, and what a very, very cool thing.

    My friend tried every avenue to get the provenance from the prior owner, but couldn't make it happen (bad communication glitches; phone numbers disconnected and things just falling through the cracks, and lost). Long story short, the story behind the gun is a good one, but can't be absolutely proven; mystiques are ok my me, anyway. I do trust my friend with the info he gave me, as he is a gunsmith, total gun-crank buddy of mine who I believe wholeheartedly. All the background on the gun, though a cool story, only adds to the great thing that I own it now. Ha!

    My bud also told me that at some point back in the past, the gun was re-barreled with a factory, period Remington barrel, marked 44 just in front of the forearm nosecap. It also has the number 1371 on the bottom barrel flat under the forearm. So, don't know when the gun was re-barreled, but to me, it really doesn't matter. I just love the old thing.

    Also, I tried to run (gently, no scratches!) a .439" pin gauge into the bore from the muzzle for a first time measurement; didn't go. I am waiting for two pin gauges that I ordered that will measure .437" and .438" to see how they might (or might not) fit. And just for a try, I ran a .41 Rem Mag, unsized, fired case into the muzzle just to see how it fit, and it did, and the case fit a little bit loosely, which measured RIGHT at, .436." I know, bubba deal there. But I got somewhat of an idea of the bore measurement until I can be more accurate before I have a visit with Steve Brooks (and a fresh slugging session, too).

    So this is interesting; old factory re-barreled #1 sporting roller with a history (when re-barreled; never know?), with a near .43 Spanish bore (?), and I DO have a set of .43 Spanish Lee dies. The best thing with this rifle is that I don't have to have this gun up and running with any kind of a deadline. PURE FUN from my end... Got my .44 pp template from BACO, Seth Cole 55 8lb. paper ordered and coming, and all the time the Good Lord will let me have building an accurate pp load. If that bore measures out @ say, .437" or .438," would it still be considered a .44/77? Ha! I don't care!

    I just got done reading a post on this forum yesterday that sums up all of this B.P.C.R. wonderful sickness we have (that I have anyway). It's by a guy with the handle of Hiwall55 (back in Dec. of '19), and he said in a post, "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." Then, "Good luck, Bill." I think I'll make a nicely lettered and framed wall hangered quote of those words right above my reloading bench to always keep me focused on this unbelievable journey I'm (we're) on.

    This journey, quest, will be continued... and again, thanks for ALL of your help.
    That is a great story! Wish you could get a copy of that picture! Keep in mind that back then Remington used the British/Colt method of caliber. For instance, in their catalogues it clearly states 44-100 bore because that was what it was nominally. In essence, we are shooting 45 cal 44-77 when using the modern method of groove diam which came about mostly in the advent of smokeless powder. There are a number of 46 rimfire sporters around and some, not so honestly at times, have changed to centerfire and rechambered to 44-77. Guess what? The groove on the 46 is also around 452ish or slightly larger.
    Not saying yours is but there are smiths around that can build 5 groove barrels to any dimension and remark them. However, an assessment of barrel markings is usually enough to confirm originality. My serials all match throughout but the barrel address is that of a manufacture in the early 1880's and not the early 70's the 12xx suggests. Either it was rebarreled by Remington or maybe a rifle made up from leftover parts at the factory. The 2 in my 4-digit rifle had a chip that shows in each place the serial occurs including the barrel which suggests coming from the factory. It has some salt and pepper frecking ahead of the chamber but other than that is entirely shootable. Have fun and post pics!

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    reinert,

    If the bore (land) diameter of your roller is something around .436-.438" that would put it in line with what modern day .44-77 barrels are. Mine, which is a Krieger barrel, measure pretty much right at .438".

    I don't recall if you have any cases that have been fired in your rifle or not. If you do the mouth ID would tell you the largest diameter bullet you would be able to chamber. Once you have all the numbers you'll be able to find out what your bullet has to look like to fit YOUR rifle.

    The twist rate will tell you the maximum length you can work with.

    A chamber cast will tell you some much needed info too.

    Good luck with your journey and be sure to enjoy the process of developing and shooting paper patch bullets. Oh, and thank you for reviving the thread!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  7. #87
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    reinert,

    If the bore (land) diameter of your roller is something around .436-.438" that would put it in line with what modern day .44-77 barrels are. Mine, which is a Krieger barrel, measure pretty much right at .438".

    I don't recall if you have any cases that have been fired in your rifle or not. If you do the mouth ID would tell you the largest diameter bullet you would be able to chamber. Once you have all the numbers you'll be able to find out what your bullet has to look like to fit YOUR rifle.

    The twist rate will tell you the maximum length you can work with.

    A chamber cast will tell you some much needed info too.

    Good luck with your journey and be sure to enjoy the process of developing and shooting paper patch bullets. Oh, and thank you for reviving the thread!
    Ditto on the chamber cast. If it has a 45 degree chamber step into the lands it is most assuredly modern as the originals have PPB chambers. However, I'm hoping and betting yours are authentic. There was a lot of variability and there are rifles around that have seemingly modern chamber dimensions. Thats why slugging and chamber casts are important.

  8. #88
    Boolit Mold
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    DT and Yellowhouse,

    I do have fire formed cases from the rifle; once fired, actually. When I got the gun, my buddy had some loaded, grease grooved bullet rounds from the 100 Jamison brass I got with the rifle. I fired most of the rounds, but since we were shooting @ 250 yds., any kind of good accuracy results with my eyes using the "Rough and Ready" barrel peep, left much to future, deliberate, "hands on" testing with pp (as my new, framed, favorite quote will remind me of). Those once fired cases, measure just pretty much dead center between .446" and .447," inside the case/neck mouth.

    I still have some loaded rounds from the batch I shot, so I pulled a bullet to measure. It pulled very easily, and even left the OPW in the neck without losing any powder. Now my buddy duplexed those loads with 1.5 Swiss, and I can't remember what his smokeless duplexing powder was (I've used nothing but black in my B.P.C.R. endeavors so far, so I don't follow what duplexing powders to use). Anyway, I believe the bullet was from an old RCBS .446" mould (not made any more as I understand), weighs 398 grns. and measures dead @ .446." These bullets were lubed with SPG.

    I also have one of those Teslong bore scopes, and you can reach most near 36" with the thing. So, going in from the muzzle, the bore looks great all the way through, and the cool thing about this scope, is you can chamber a spent case, and see all the way into the case itself if you want to. Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? To me, it kind of looks that way, but I'm still learning here. Yeah, a chamber cast should/would/will no doubt be a next step for aid in regarding a new mould." Also, the new Jamison cases measure right @ 2.25," as they should, and a fired case from the rifle measures @ 2.24."

    I have two Shilohs, a Hartford 45/70 with a 30" sporter oct. barrel, and a LRE in 45/90 with a 32" heavy oct. barrel. I shoot strictly b.p. with greasers in both, and they are wonderfully accurate. So I might be spoiled as to thinking how easy it is to load for these "old tyme" rifles. I hope the pp loadings might/could be the same for this old rifle I have, but I'm ready for the long haul to an accurate pp load for the old roller if need be. All fun, with an old gun.

    "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." What a line.... "Good luck, Bill" Ha!

    reinert

  9. #89
    Boolit Master
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    Reinert - I'm following along on your progress and results. I just bought an original .44-77 #1 sporting rifle. While waiting for it to arrive I'm trying to learn as much as possible. Please post updates as your journey continues - thanks.

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinert View Post
    DT and Yellowhouse,

    I do have fire formed cases from the rifle; once fired, actually. When I got the gun, my buddy had some loaded, grease grooved bullet rounds from the 100 Jamison brass I got with the rifle. I fired most of the rounds, but since we were shooting @ 250 yds., any kind of good accuracy results with my eyes using the "Rough and Ready" barrel peep, left much to future, deliberate, "hands on" testing with pp (as my new, framed, favorite quote will remind me of). Those once fired cases, measure just pretty much dead center between .446" and .447," inside the case/neck mouth.

    I still have some loaded rounds from the batch I shot, so I pulled a bullet to measure. It pulled very easily, and even left the OPW in the neck without losing any powder. Now my buddy duplexed those loads with 1.5 Swiss, and I can't remember what his smokeless duplexing powder was (I've used nothing but black in my B.P.C.R. endeavors so far, so I don't follow what duplexing powders to use). Anyway, I believe the bullet was from an old RCBS .446" mould (not made any more as I understand), weighs 398 grns. and measures dead @ .446." These bullets were lubed with SPG.

    I also have one of those Teslong bore scopes, and you can reach most near 36" with the thing. So, going in from the muzzle, the bore looks great all the way through, and the cool thing about this scope, is you can chamber a spent case, and see all the way into the case itself if you want to. Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? To me, it kind of looks that way, but I'm still learning here. Yeah, a chamber cast should/would/will no doubt be a next step for aid in regarding a new mould." Also, the new Jamison cases measure right @ 2.25," as they should, and a fired case from the rifle measures @ 2.24."

    I have two Shilohs, a Hartford 45/70 with a 30" sporter oct. barrel, and a LRE in 45/90 with a 32" heavy oct. barrel. I shoot strictly b.p. with greasers in both, and they are wonderfully accurate. So I might be spoiled as to thinking how easy it is to load for these "old tyme" rifles. I hope the pp loadings might/could be the same for this old rifle I have, but I'm ready for the long haul to an accurate pp load for the old roller if need be. All fun, with an old gun.

    "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." What a line.... "Good luck, Bill" Ha!

    reinert
    Sounds like the real deal to me. What a find!!!

  11. #91
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    "Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? "

    That is a paper patch/lead bullet lead. The 45 degree came along with the start of the gilded jackets mostly around the .30-40 Kraig time using the Cordite powder and less smoke powder.
    I would guess with your inside cases mouth measuring .446-.447" that chamber was cut with a custom reamer and seeing the long tapered lead. Your good to go finding an accurate load. The .44-77 is a great caliber and it won't take much getting it where you want it.

    Find out what the bore twist is and match the bullet to it. if it's 1/19 or slower I would use a bullet around 1.325" long or less with a nose on the blunter side around .250". My two .44-77's, 1/19 and 1/17 twists shoot them well.

  12. #92
    Boolit Mold
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    Haven't checked in here for a spell, and am letting ya'll know of what I've been doing, and plan on doing currently, with the old roller. Hunting season is upon us here in Big Wyoming. And what I've decided to do 'till winter hits, and the hunt is over, is to use the rcbs .44 370 grn. F.N. greaser bullet during the season when packing the old Remington. Then I plan, in earnest, to proceed with the paper patch project. Again, this old gun won't be any kind of competition piece, just a fun old period rifle to hunt and plink with, and I'm in no hurry to come to any kind of finality with a load. I'm just going to have fun playing with the cool old thing.

    I read somewhere that RCBS quit making the .44 mould I recently got from BACO, and I was quite happy to see that they were still available. So I got one. I did get a bunch of rounds made up for the rifle using that bullet, which shot quite well at 50yds. I know that was not any kind of a real test, but I was happy with my first real outing with it, to see what accuracy it just might be capable of. I'm also waiting on a .444 bullet sizer right now, as the rounds did lead the bore more than a little. Since a .439 pin gauge did not fit breech nor muzzle, I figured to try the .444 bullet size to start. The inside case mouths on fire-formed, un-sized cases, measure right @ .446." I'm thinking I might just be able to finger seat a .444 sized greaser in those cases; we'll see. For now, I'm good with a greaser pill for this hunting season, as I really want to take the old beast out on the mountain.

    That "rough and ready" sight's aperture is too little for my eyes to use at all (would never work for me in dark timber), and since I didn't want to alter it (yet), I made a "frontier style" elevator out of a copper rivet to raise it high enough to print dead @ 50yds. (the rifle shot more than a foot low using my rest) when using the conventional rear leaf. When that ladder sight is down, and using the regular conventional leaf rear sight (a lot like my Shiloh rear) I can use that rivet elevator, which I made so I can slide it in the aperture disc's setting track, and I can actually lock it in place for an adjustable rear sight elevator. Hope that made some sort of sense. The rivet deal really does look like a "prairie fix" improv as one might have made out of necessity on a hunt. Guess that's just what I did, and it WORKS! Ha! Can't wait to pack that old gun on the hill chasing my cow elk. Whether I'm successful on a kill with it this season really doesn't matter that much. It's just the fact I put an old rifle back on track for what it was designed for. To me, that's as cool as it gets.

    BTW, Lead Pot, my rifle does have a 1/19 r.o.t. Good to be back talking "Old Rollers!"

  13. #93
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for the update reinert. I've ordered some pp and grease bullets from BACO to start out with. PP is my preference, but I'll see how it goes.

    Mine was factory drilled and tapped for a tang sight. I happened to have a new Marbles sight on the shelf with Remington hole spacing, so I mounted it. Its not the same quality as vintage originals, but it will help my aging eyes.

    Keep us posted on your progress.
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  14. #94
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    If that RCBS mould is the .44-370-FN 585 that is a good bullet for the 19 ROT. I used that mould for my Shiloh with the 19 ROT and it worked very good especially for what your plans are for this fine roller as long as the bore riding portion of the bullet is not to tight for the bore diameter so it will seat in the throat.

    It will be a little tight for your .446" fired case mouth but a run through a sizing die if needed will work just fine. My tight chambered .44 rifles a .446 will not fit the case mouth but I only shoot the PP. so I can adjust the bullet diameter without a problem.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check