Lee PrecisionTitan ReloadingInline FabricationWideners
RepackboxADvertise hereRotoMetals2

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: 44-77 sharps?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    15

    44-77 sharps?

    Back be fore Christmas I picked up an older Shiloh 44-77. What Diameter would PP slick should I use?
    What size is the shell holder
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	21D82BA9-DF91-4A1D-B146-6C98BB23D674.jpeg 
Views:	41 
Size:	33.4 KB 
ID:	255213  

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    South Texas
    Posts
    313
    Good lookin Sharps!

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    I prefer 434 or 435 diameter bullets wrapped in 8 lb paper.
    I also prefer to keep the length of the bullet to no longer than 1.3 inches.
    You can get by with using a Lee 43 mauser size die for sizing the cases for paper patch bullets, and that shell holder fits Jamison 44-77 cases. If you're using cases formed from other cartridges such as the 348 winchester, or 50-110 winchester, then use the shell holder for either of those.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  4. #4
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    15
    Thanks Don!

    I bought a box of loaded ammo from BACO, $$$!

    I shot this group at 100 yards using the barrel sights.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	9E511C62-2E8B-4B92-A4A6-613B2EA9B01C.jpg 
Views:	163 
Size:	30.5 KB 
ID:	255228

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    That doesn't look to bad for commercial ammo. The 44-77 is a pretty easy cartridge to deal with. If you go the grease groove route my Shiloh's like the bullet at .448 diameter.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    That doesn't look to bad for commercial ammo. The 44-77 is a pretty easy cartridge to deal with. If you go the grease groove route my Shiloh's like the bullet at .448 diameter.
    Thanks for the info, The only loaded ammo they had was GG. I'll be using PP bullets once I have some more cases to load. Compared to my 50 2.5 the 44-77 is a pussycat.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    The 44 is definitely easy on the shoulder, even when whipping a 480 gr bullet down range at 1300 fps or so. Really pleasant with the 410 gr, or 1.1 inch long patched bullets.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    IOWA
    Posts
    235
    Not to HI-Jack this thread, but I am thinking of having a new Shiloh in 44-77 and not finding any brass for it. I was wondering if a guy could use the other brass listed by BACO?

    Thanks Scott

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    Baco makes occasional runs of 44-77 brass from 50-110 and 348 brass.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    15
    From what I have been reading it looks like each rifle manufacturer uses a different rim thickness so you have to order the correct brass for your rifle.

    I put my name on the back order list at BACO for the brass.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    135
    R-71,

    Yes, rim thickness varies quite a bit, but thick rims can be turned thinner if you have a lathe or know someone that does. To do it right you should remove the excess material from the surface at the case head, frontside. Once set up properly it doesn't take long to turn a bunch of brass to the correct thickness.

    If you remove the material from the backside, the head stamped side, you end up reducing the primer pocket depth and that can be just trading one problem for another.

    Also, it is a bottleneck case and as such it can be head spaced off the shoulder if fireformed correctly and that would allow the use of undersize rims if need be.

    There are a number of ways around the problems of brass with the .44-77 it just comes down to how much you want that chamber and what you're willing to weather to get there, how much work you're willing to invest. For me it has been a rough and rocky road and I seem to be a long way from having my .44-77, but I will not be deterred this time.

    I can offer more ways to make the brass problem less of a problem for the .44-77, but it depends on what resources you have available to you.

    The .44-77 is arguably the coolest of the Sharps cartridges, especially with paper patch bullets. It is historically significant too, both on the target range and the western plains. It is a truly obsolete cartridge with no SAAMI specs and no parent case to be made from. I suspect that the .45-70 is the reason for that. Being the .45-70 was the government round of the day and a very fine cartridge in its own right it was much easier for that family of cartridges to survive with less baggage into modern day. Still the .44-77 is not dead, it just takes more effort to get one up and running. Most shooters are not interested in making the effort, which is a shame really, it is a fine cartridge that deserves to be kept alive. But you have to want it and if you do, go for it.
    Last edited by Distant Thunder; 02-20-2020 at 09:27 PM.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    DT I suspect you're correct about the 45 US being a major cause of the demise of the 44, but I also am prone to think that the other major cause was the introduction and rapid acceptance of smokeless powder, that big ol case just doesn't lend it's self well to white powder propellants. Also the rapid rise in popularity of light weight and flat shooting 30 caliber rifles, that even caused the relative death of the 45 US until it's resurgence in the late 1970's... It is interesting to note that as late as the 1916 Winchester catalog 44-77 cartridges were still available..
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    135
    Don,

    You are absolutely correct that smokeless caused the death of these many fine BP cartridges and smokeless gave the small bores life. Many of the BP cartridges fell into obsolescence with only a few of the smaller capacity cases able to make at least somewhat of a transition into the white powder era. Then when the interest began to rekindle in these old single shot rifles the cartridges that shared the head size of the .45 Government, and there are a lot of those, found a much easier path back from the grave. The .44 bottlenecks did not have that advantage and even though the .44-77 and .44-90 are excellent cartridges they have not enjoyed the popularity they deserve as a result.

    It is good that at least a few shooters, like you and Kurt and a few others, have made the effort to keep them alive. We can't over look that Shiloh continues to provide the fine rifles in .44-77 (& .44-90) that they do and what that has done for the .44s. When I talked to Kirk about their 19-twist .44s he of course answered as a businessman and mentioned the cost of adding a faster twist.

    Ideally a man would have one of each, a 19-twist because it's close to the originals and a 17-twist in order to be better able to compete against the .45s. I'll start working on my 19-twist as soon as I get my 17-twist in hand and working!
    Last edited by Distant Thunder; 02-20-2020 at 09:30 PM.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    DT, I have come to the conclusion that basically the 17 twist is best applied to the 44-90 rem straight, with two rifles so chambered it's quite easy to see why it was so popular back in the day.
    I fully believe that keeping bullet length to 1.3 maximum in the 19 twist Shiloh's it is fully competitive to 1000 yards. I discovered that length when sitting here at the desk wondering what exactly was the problem with longer bullets, when I looked up and saw a line of bullets, mostly grease groove 45's, but a single pulled bullet from a 44-77 original creedmoor round just jumped out at me.. Taking it to the calipers, and scale, what do you know, the thing is 1.3 inches long, and weighs in at 460 grains.. It's diameter is .438, which is just a bit large to fit down the muzzle of my Shiloh's but a quick letter with check enclosed to Mr. Brooks and back came a slick at 1.29 .435 diameter..and it preformed well at Raton. I have another Shiloh on order that hopefully on the off chance things work out to go to the Creedmoor 150 on the big anniversary date should fit right close to rifles of the time period.
    On another side note, in eastern Montana in one of the local county museums there's a really nice sharps that the original owner had at the Battle of Stoneyville, the card discription below it says that the day after the fight he took the rifle to the store in Mill Iron and traded it for an 86 winchester (which is in the same display) because he decided it was a bunch better to have a lighter rifle that held more than one shot at a time. LOL
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In a State that is #1 with people migrating out.
    Posts
    3,004
    Jim,
    I'm glad I had the foresight when Bell still made the .44/3-1/4 basic brass fo get several hundred and also picked up more .44-77 and .44-90 from Jamison.
    I have two .44-90 bn's and one .44-77 with another coming soon in twists 16, 17 and 19 and the 19 does not take the back seat to the others as far as accuracy. Yes with the slower twist you have to adjust the bullet length a slight bit for the .44-77 but the .44-2-5/8/90 BN will shoot the longer bullets I use for the 17 and 16 twist.
    The .44 BN chambers get a lot of bad rep from shooters that don't have or even shot them.
    I think if more shooters would drop a line or call Starline to make cases for these calibers they just might making some.

    I think the large bore .45's started to loose favor when the .30-40 Kraig came around in the late 1800's just like the .222 and the .22-250 lost favor over the .223 because of the bulk brass and factory rounds available.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    DT on another note , in preperation for going to the Phoenix shootlpalooza, I came across a flat of 50 of those Brooks bullets already wrapped and ready to go. If you want them I could bring them to Lodi in May.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In a State that is #1 with people migrating out.
    Posts
    3,004
    Are we going to have at least 3 maybe 4 .44-77 shooters at Lodi this year?

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    I'll be shooting my 44-90, and my 77 in 45-90.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Northeast WI
    Posts
    135
    Don,

    Yes bring those bullets please!

    I had a .44-100 Remington with an 18-twist barrel and I could shoot a bullet up to about 485 grains well out to 600 and probably 800 yards. It was quite accurate at those ranges, but I never had it working out at 1000. Could have been the rifle or it could have been just me. I feel I will be much happier with a 17-twist in my first .44-77. With any luck at all I'll be able to run a 17 and a 19-twist side by side some day and decide which I like best. That day could be a ways off.

    Kurt,

    I don't plan to be shooting a .44-77 at Lodi in May, but it could happen if everything fell in line. I doubt that if will. I'd have to have my .44-77 shooting very well and I don't even have the rifle yet, heck, I don't even have a .44 caliber barrel to put on my rifle yet. So it is unlikely.

    My hope would be to have it ready for the fall Lodi match. All of that is just wishful thinking at this point, we'll see how it all comes together once I have my rifle and do some shooting. It will take me a month to get ready for load development once I have the back from Shiloh. Then I'll need time figure things out and get enough load development done so I can at least hit a barn with it.
    Last edited by Distant Thunder; 02-20-2020 at 09:36 PM.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,416
    DT I'll bring those along. I'm running the .434470 bullet cast from 16-1 and wrapped in 7 lb paper in the 44-2.4. Haven't choreographed it but I suspect it'll beat 1300 by a good bit.. But at any rate the amount of vertical that will hold at 1000 is simply amazingly small. At Byers when we could keep a cross wind with no nasty little head wind tail wind switches, it never left the 9-3 oclock line, sadly the wind was pulsing just enough that the x ring was scarce but most of the bullet strikes came back marked at x ring level.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check