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[Petrol & Powder]

Catch22 - I'm not sure what it is you are seeking.

Based on the words you have used, I think you are really struggling with minutia in the tall weeds. Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

Instead of worrying about: "soot", "heat staining ???" , "discoloration of the brass near the case mouth" and other obscure gremlins;......
maybe you should just concentrate on accurate loads that fall within acceptable pressure parameters and function well in your firearms?

I have reloaded and shot a LOT of 38 Special, 9mm Luger, 45 ACP and a lot of other cartridges in my lifetime. I have never really been consumed with concerns such as "soot" and "discoloration of brass".

So, just trying to be helpful here; My current standard 45 ACP load is a roughly a 200 grain LSWC with 5.2 grains of ww231. A lot of folks use 4 to 5 grains of Bullseye behind the same bullet.
My concern is centered on two factors: Is the load safe and does the load perform well.
I've never stressed about "soot", discoloration", "Does this spent casing clash with my shoes" or "what are the cool kids shooting".

You seem to be stuck in the tall weeds.

[45workhorse]

If my case are sooty, but I have one ragged hole down range where I have been shooting! Winner, winner chicken dinner!

Just, Shoooot it man!

[Wheelguns 1961]

I always thought sooty cases were the result of poor neck tension or weak crimp. Since I use noe expanders, I know what my neck tension is. If my cases are sooty, I usually just increase my crimp slightly, and it goes away. Of course, this has only happened with revolver rounds in my case. I never start too low with my data.

[Catch22]

Catch22 - I'm not sure what it is you are seeking.

Based on the words you have used, I think you are really struggling with minutia in the tall weeds. Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

Instead of worrying about: "soot", "heat staining ???" , "discoloration of the brass near the case mouth" and other obscure gremlins;......
maybe you should just concentrate on accurate loads that fall within acceptable pressure parameters and function well in your firearms?

I have reloaded and shot a LOT of 38 Special, 9mm Luger, 45 ACP and a lot of other cartridges in my lifetime. I have never really been consumed with concerns such as "soot" and "discoloration of brass".

So, just trying to be helpful here; My current standard 45 ACP load is a roughly a 200 grain LSWC with 5.2 grains of ww231. A lot of folks use 4 to 5 grains of Bullseye behind the same bullet.
My concern is centered on two factors: Is the load safe and does the load perform well.
I've never stressed about "soot", discoloration", "Does this spent casing clash with my shoes" or "what are the cool kids shooting".

I'm not stressing, I'm trying to find an efficient and proper load for this particular gun. To me, the soot indicates insufficient case expansion and seal. That equates to a round that's not functioning as it should. A little bit I wouldn't worry about, but when I'm seeing fire coming out of the chamber during cycling, partially or completely unburned powder in the chamber and barrel, and heavy sooting on the brass that's abnormal, that's where I'm having a concern.

If a powder is "dirty" and leaves some soot and such, so be it, I'm not worried so much about it. But when I'm seeing improper case seal and stuff coming out of the chamber, that I don't like.

The little bit of heat staining I saw I'm not so worried about, it was something I was noting more than anything and something I don't remember seeing with factory ammo. Not such a big deal, as it's one little area. I'm more worried about heavy sooting that, again, indicates I'm not getting good case expansion, especially when I'm seeing exactly that when I throw calipers on the brass.

I may be overanalyzing, and I'm prone to that, but that's why I came here to get thoughts as I progress. I work as a firefighter and have a lot of training in combustion. When I see incomplete combustion in a platform where pressure is involved and signs of that pressure leaving the container, I don't like it. I want to see complete combustion contained, which is what I'm seeing as I progress. I just wanted to make sure I was progressing up the ladder safely.

I obviously have a different operating gun than you do if 5.2 of W231 works for you. 5.6 of W231 won't cycle mine. 5.9 wasn't bad, but cycling was weaker than I want to see and case expansion wasn't where I wanted it. 6.2 is where I'm seeing what I want to see with good case expansion and cycling.

I always thought sooty cases were the result of poor neck tension or weak crimp. Since I use noe expanders, I know what my neck tension is. If my cases are sooty, I usually just increase my crimp slightly, and it goes away. Of course, this has only happened with revolver rounds in my case. I never start too low with my data.

Soot on the case I take as not getting proper case expansion to seal the case in the chamber. Adjusting powder or amount, or increasing crimp, should increase the pressure before the boolit leaves the case and seal the case against the chamber.

That's what I'm looking for. Good case expansion and seal against the chamber, which is what I'm seeing now that I've upped the charges and tried a different powder or two.

Soot, especially like I was seeing, I associate with inefficient burn of the powder, especially when I see flakes of powder in the soot that are either partially or completely unburned, especially if I'm seeing fire out the chamber during cycling.

Part of what may be a mental block is dealing with loads for my Schmidt-Rubin 1889. It has to have lower pressure rounds than the other Swiss rifles. If you don't find the right combination of neck tension, powder burn rate, etc. you get blowback, which comes right into your face. Sooting around the neck tells me I'm not getting good case expansion and seal and I need to adjust, be it amount of powder, a faster burning powder, or neck tension/crimp. If I increase the load, I can increase pressure. If I go with a faster burning powder, I can get the pressure up faster and get a seal faster. If I increase neck tension or put a bit of a crimp on, I can increase pressure.

That's probably a big part of what I'm associating here is that experience. I'm don't want to crimp any more than I am, as I'm seeing a distinct ring around boolits I pull and don't want to do too much, but am dancing between having a sufficient powder load vs burn rate. Especially as I sit here this morning running it through my head as I read comments.


I appreciate some of you guys don't pay much attention to it, but I want to see good burn of whatever powder I'm shooting. I'm getting what I want as a result and believe I have figured out one of my bigger issues is using jacketed vs cast data with the plated.

[6bg6ga]

I think this might be a question of gun knowledge and usage by someone possibly expecting too much without the proper knowledge of what they should be expecting. All guns ....my experience here will not provide a spent round that isn't discolored dirty or whatever. I personally don't think you will now or ever get any type of complete sealing.

As to the charge of 5.2 gr of 231 not cycling. Horse hockey! My wife has the identical Kimber 1911 bone stock and it will cycle minimum loads without a problem as a matter of fact minimum loads is what she enjoys shooting in hers. Your probably limp wristing yours resulting in a malfunction.

My suggestion is sell it or trade it and find something else.

[Catch22]

I think this might be a question of gun knowledge and usage by someone possibly expecting too much without the proper knowledge of what they should be expecting. All guns ....my experience here will not provide a spent round that isn't discolored dirty or whatever. I personally don't think you will now or ever get any type of complete sealing.

As to the charge of 5.2 gr of 231 not cycling. Horse hockey! My wife has the identical Kimber 1911 bone stock and it will cycle minimum loads without a problem as a matter of fact minimum loads is what she enjoys shooting in hers. Your probably limp wristing yours resulting in a malfunction.

My suggestion is sell it or trade it and find something else.

If you'll read, I'm not concerned about a bit of discoloration, my concern was the amount of soot and lack case expansion based on both sooting and measurements.

Mine isn't bone stock. I also have plenty of knowledge of firearms and how to shoot them. It's not a limp wrist issue, I can assure you.

I have a load that's doing what I want at this point and plan on working on some of the other powders I've been messing with to find which fits my needs the best. Thanks for your concern...

[44MAG#1]

I think we may have misunderstood the situation. To the OP it is a problem. Real or preserved. Our perception becomes our our truth. He came on here asking for help. Many have tried. That is good. Maybe it is time to just sit back and let him do it himself. Sometimes the best teacher is letting someone find out themselves in the ""school of hard knocks".
Not meaning no harm just saying that in raising a child the child will have to sometimes learn how to figure out things on their own. Sometimes those lessons are the best teacher.

[Catch22]

I think we may have misunderstood the situation. To the OP it is a problem. Real or preserved. Our perception becomes our our truth. He came on here asking for help. Many have tried. That is good. Maybe it is time to just sit back and let him do it himself. Sometimes the best teacher is letting someone find out themselves in the ""school of hard knocks".
Not meaning no harm just saying that in raising a child the child will have to sometimes learn how to figure out things on their own. Sometimes those lessons are the best teacher.

If I've come off unappreciative of those offering constructive help, that's not my intent. I am more than appreciative. But yes, I'm new to the handgun thing and trying to work through what I'm seeing as an issue. Maybe I'm not articulating what I'm seeing/perceiving very well, which I'm prone to. Maybe I'm overanalyzing, which I'm also prone to.

As someone pointed out, I started off using jacketed data and staying lower in the load range when I should be looking at cast data, as plated is more similar to cast. Something significant that I missed when researching my data before loading them, especially with CFE Pistol where the bottom range of one is at the max of the other. Very beneficial and very appreciated.

I would rather err on making sure I understand what's going on than to screw up.

[44MAG#1]

What Im saying is that some mist have something to piddle with, or if you will, is something they have to figure out to keep their minds busy.
I have been loading for 1911's and Glocks and a revolver in 45 Auto for many many years. Never let soot. a few sparks discolored cases bother me.
If I wanted to try a powder and or bullet and the gun didnt want to funtion I would increase the load or change bullet or both till it did. Some funs are finikey. Just like an XDs I had. It went down the road. I have four Kimbers that have sooty cases but will function well with just about anything resembling reasonable. They even digest the Saeco 058 bullet well.
Just wondering is all. Nothing wrong with that. We all do it.
You said yours wasnt "Box stock" what has been changed? Could that be a potential problem?
I have to be careful on what I post. I have been in trouble in the past.
Thank you.

[Catch22]

What Im saying is that some mist have something to piddle with, or if you will, is something they have to figure out to keep their minds busy.
I have been loading for 1911's and Glocks and a revolver in 45 Auto for many many years. Never let soot. a few sparks discolored cases bother me.
If I wanted to try a powder and or bullet and the gun didnt want to funtion I would increase the load or change bullet or both till it did. Some funs are finikey. Just like an XDs I had. It went down the road. I have four Kimbers that have sooty cases but will function well with just about anything resembling reasonable. They even digest the Saeco 058 bullet well.
Just wondering is all. Nothing wrong with that. We all do it.
You said yours wasnt "Box stock" what has been changed? Could that be a potential problem?
I have to be careful on what I post. I have been in trouble in the past.
Thank you.

I gotcha. Sometimes written word doesn't portray as well as what spoken does. I fall into that trap from time to time. Well, maybe more frequently. I also tend to have issues articulating what I'm trying to say. My mind works a specific way and I can get a block on certain things. Like fixating on jacketed vs lead like Tazman was pointing out. Makes sense once I get to thinking about it, though.

I'm a tinkerer, anyway. A big part of why reloading appeals to me, I can mess with numbers, data, and the finite things. It's therapeutic for me and has helped me out in that regard. It's not so much that the soot or whatever bothers me if it's not a big deal, it's my mind processing and trying to tweak what's going on to perfect it and adapting from what I'm accustomed to with rifle rounds. I'm not the only one that's potentially going to shoot this gun and these rounds, so I want them right.

I've had it 10+ years and just now reloading for it. I know the guy I got it from had some work done with the sear spring and mainspring. I'm wondering if he also put in a different recoil spring, as well.

[44MAG#1]

Get on Wolff Gunsprings and order a 16 Pound recoil spring if it is a 5 inch gun or one for the appropriate barrel lenght and install it. Replace the hammer spring too. Start with the Factory Poundage then move forward.
The springs are cheap.
A 1911 with a 16 pound factory spec spring will function with a fairly low charge and a 230 gr bullet. Will also with a 200 grain. Low for the appropriate bullet weight. If all you are going to do is shoot standard loads those spring are ALL you need.

[Catch22]

Get on Wolff Gunsprings and order a 16 Pound recoil spring if it is a 5 inch gun or one for the appropriate barrel lenght and install it. Replace the hammer spring too. Start with the Factory Poundage then move forward.
The springs are cheap.
A 1911 with a 16 pound factory spec spring will function with a fairly low charge and a 230 gr bullet. Will also with a 200 grain. Low for the appropriate bullet weight. If all you are going to do is shoot standard loads those spring are ALL you need.

I'll have a look at them. Thanks!

[Petrol & Powder]

............

I obviously have a different operating gun than you do if 5.2 of W231 works for you. 5.6 of W231 won't cycle mine. 5.9 wasn't bad, but cycling was weaker than I want to see and case expansion wasn't where I wanted it. 6.2 is where I'm seeing what I want to see with good case expansion and cycling........


.

I'm sorry but if 5.6 grains of ww231 behind a 200 grain bullet will not cycle a 1911, something is wrong.

My standard load is 5.2 grains of 231 with a roughly 200 grain LSWC (SAECO #69) and it runs reliably.

If 5.6 grains is failing to cycle the gun, the scale if wrong, the gun is broken, the recoil spring is wrong, something is not right.

[6bg6ga]

I believe it should have a 20lb spring in it stock since its a short barrel 1911.

If it had a lighter spring it would cycle with less of a charge. You can change hammer springs and or do a trigger job and its not going to effect its ability to properly eject a fired round.

Having said that it isn't inconceivable that someone put a Colt officers 22 or 24lb recoil spring in it by mistake which would make it act up. A Colt Officers model has a 3.5 inch barrel.

[Catch22]

I believe it should have a 20lb spring in it stock since its a short barrel 1911.

If it had a lighter spring it would cycle with less of a charge. You can change hammer springs and or do a trigger job and its not going to effect its ability to properly eject a fired round.

Having said that it isn't inconceivable that someone put a Colt officers 22 or 24lb recoil spring in it by mistake which would make it act up. A Colt Officers model has a 3.5 inch barrel.

Good to know. Appreciate it!

[44MAG#1]

Good to know. Appreciate it!

The thing to do is go to gunsprings.com and they will list the springs you should have based on barrel length. also a call wont cost you anything if you have doubt. My 3 inch Kimber 1911'45 Auto Has a factory 18 pounder in it. Dont guess just research and do. I am going by what Kimbers website says as far as poundage.

[txbirdman]

I’ve been shooting a Colt Combat Commander for a couple of decades with the RCBS 201 gr SWC and WST. I really like this combo for accuracy and powder efficiency.

[Rodfac]

P&P said: I'm sorry but if 5.6 grains of ww231 behind a 200 grain bullet will not cycle a 1911, something is wrong.

My standard load is 5.2 grains of 231 with a roughly 200 grain LSWC (SAECO #69 Or H&G #68) and it runs reliably.

If 5.6 grains is failing to cycle the gun, the scale if wrong, the gun is broken, the recoil spring is wrong, something is not right.

Absolutely, darn good advice...best guess is that your gun was set up to run very hot loads of +P ammunition. Check the spring weight for your bbl. length as well as your mainspring, then replace both. If 5.2 gr of 231 won't cycle the slide, the gun's at fault. That's a known load for 200 gr bullets of the LSWC variety...in my five 1911's (a Sig, two Rugers, a Gold Cup and a WWll Remington Rand), all with stock springs, a 5.6 gr of 231 backing a 200 g. LSWC is a hot load & ejects brass 10 feet out. (Lead alloy bullets BTW are the same as your plated bullets as far as data goes) And 5.9 and 6.2 gr of 231 are very high pressure loads...you're risking accelerated wear on the gun with them.

As to soot on the cases etc., .45 ACP rounds have thick brass, and low pressure when compared to say a .40 S&W or 9mm, this'll result in sooty cases it's the nature of the old beast...but theese same sooty cases with appropriate loads result in outstanding accuracy, especially in the case of the 5.2 gr load of 231 or 4.8 of Bullseye with 200 grainers in my experience.

Crimp...the .45 ACP round relies on neck tension for correct bullet pull not crimp. The case mouth flare, necessary with lead alloy and to an extent with jacketed bullets should only be straightened out by the die's crimping shoulder and that is all. Excessive roll or taper crimping bullets as you inferred is unnecessary and may in fact affect head space not to mention negative impact on accuracy. In practice, you straighten out the flare and that is all.

As a final word, check and replace your springs, then settle on a low to middle load of 231, WST, Unique or something similar with your 200 gr bullets. Minimize the crimping to that suggested above. Tweaking the loads listed below +- 0.1-0.2 grains will give you function & accuracy IF...you've got decent bullets. If not, try Missouri Bullet Co.'s 200 gr LSWC's. If you're interested in target grade loads, 4.8 of Bullseye or 5.2 gr. of 231 with your bullets should do the trick. For carry purposes, get some JHP factory ammunition and use the handloads for practice.

HTH's, Rod

[6bg6ga]

The thing to do is go to gunsprings.com and they will list the springs you should have based on barrel length. also a call wont cost you anything if you have doubt. My 3 inch Kimber 1911'45 Auto Has a factory 18 pounder in it. Dont guess just research and do. I am going by what Kimbers website says as far as poundage.

Your right it is 18lbs at the KImber site. Some others call for 20 so I'd do 18 unless your shooting heavy loads.

[6bg6ga]

Absolutely, darn good advice...best guess is that your gun was set up to run very hot loads of +P ammunition. Check the spring weight for your bbl. length as well as your mainspring, then replace both. If 5.2 gr of 231 won't cycle the slide, the gun's at fault. That's a known load for 200 gr bullets of the LSWC variety...in my five 1911's (a Sig, two Rugers, a Gold Cup and a WWll Remington Rand), all with stock springs, a 5.6 gr of 231 backing a 200 g. LSWC is a hot load & ejects brass 10 feet out. (Lead alloy bullets BTW are the same as your plated bullets as far as data goes) And 5.9 and 6.2 gr of 231 are very high pressure loads...you're risking accelerated wear on the gun with them.

As to soot on the cases etc., .45 ACP rounds have thick brass, and low pressure when compared to say a .40 S&W or 9mm, this'll result in sooty cases it's the nature of the old beast...but theese same sooty cases with appropriate loads result in outstanding accuracy, especially in the case of the 5.2 gr load of 231 or 4.8 of Bullseye with 200 grainers in my experience.

Crimp...the .45 ACP round relies on neck tension for correct bullet pull not crimp. The case mouth flare, necessary with lead alloy and to an extent with jacketed bullets should only be straightened out by the die's crimping shoulder and that is all. Excessive roll or taper crimping bullets as you inferred is unnecessary and may in fact affect head space not to mention negative impact on accuracy. In practice, you straighten out the flare and that is all.

As a final word, check and replace your springs, then settle on a low to middle load of 231, WST, Unique or something similar with your 200 gr bullets. Minimize the crimping to that suggested above. Tweaking the loads listed below +- 0.1-0.2 grains will give you function & accuracy IF...you've got decent bullets. If not, try Missouri Bullet Co.'s 200 gr LSWC's. If you're interested in target grade loads, 4.8 of Bullseye or 5.2 gr. of 231 with your bullets should do the trick. For carry purposes, get some JHP factory ammunition and use the handloads for practice.

HTH's, Rod

Been shooting 5.6 gr of 231 with 230gr RN cast bullets since the 70's and no problems and it doesn't batter the gun. Just enough crimp so you cannot move the bullet if you hold it in your hand and push against something. I always test the crimp by measuring the length with a caliper and then do my push test and check the length again.