Loading for a Kimber 1911...

[Catch22]

It's going to be a couple of days before I can start messing with loads again, so I thought I'd feel out the masses and see if anyone has some experience or input with what I'm experiencing.

I'm loading for a 4" Kimber 1911 (Pro Raptor II, to be specific). The load is 200 gr copper plated RN pills over either Titewad, Titegroup, or CFE Pistol. I also have a couple of other options, but these are the ones I've used so far.

I started on the low end of the data I've been finding on these powders and was experiencing soot on the brass after firing. I had this with each powder, especially the CFE Pistol (man that's dirty stuff). Did some researching and discussing on the ol' interwebs and found Kimbers tend to like the higher end of the data ranges. Make sense why the soot on the brass.

So yesterday I play with a couple higher loads of Titewad. 3.8 and 4.2 gr to be precise. I didn't have time to try any other powders due to time of day. The sooting is gone, but I noticed fire coming out of the chamber and discoloration of the brass near the case mouth about 1/4 of the circumference coming down maybe 1/4-3/8". No pressure indicators on the primers or anything that I can tell, though I'm just shy of max with that load from the data I have.

Is this something common that I just haven't noticed with factory rounds? I've shot 230 gr FMJ from different manufacturers and 200 gr FMJ from Freedom Munitions. I've never noticed the discoloration, but never really paid attention either.

Like I say, figured I'd get some thoughts before I start messing with different combos again. I want to wonder if it's not getting good seal, but not sure if it's powder still burning as it ejects with the fire coming out of the chamber.

I figure on trying one more load a touch higher with the Titewad and giving my other powders a run higher on the scale when I get the chance to see how they perform. That may be determined by what info I get for feedback here.

I've got a mess of these plated pills to last me until I get can my casting setup up and running and throwing my own out. If you guys have a 4" 1911 and have recommendations on boolits, feel free to toss them out. From my understanding, the 4" 1911's like the 200gr and lighter rounds, so that's what I'm looking at casting.

[AnthonyB]

Can’t help with the stocks you already have, but buy the RCBS 45-230CM and load any brass that will stand on its own with 6.0 gr. Unique. Not the fastest load, and not the cleanest burning, but I have found no reason to switch. The only advantage to the 200 gr. bullets I have found is less use of lead.
Tony

[Boogieman]

I load for 3.6" and 5" Colts 200gr. SWC [H&G style Lee] with Titegroup or BE86. TG will stain brass with light loads, it gets better with heaver loads. I switch to BE86 for top end loads TG gets touchy at top end BE86 is more like Unique only it's cleaner and measures better. IT will match factory ballistics a it under Alliant's max. loads Most 1911's work best with an OAL between 1.240- 1.260". Browning's original design was for a 200gr. bullet at 900fps. but the Army Brass wanted a 230 gr.

[Todd N.]

I use 230 grain bullets only- both jacketed and cast- in all my 1911's and no other weight. I use W231 or Red Dot and have none of the issues you describe. Barrel length has no bearing on brass appearance with the issues you are having. Also, don't get too hung up on looking at primers for your pressure indications- they're neither consistent nor reliable. Learn to start measuring case expansion- your brass will tell you exactly what you are doing.

What you are describing is generally leakage around the case mouth during powder ignition, Common causes are low powder charge, light crimp, undersize bullets, over-expanded cases not allowing bullet neck tension to build adequate start pressure. And then there's the possibility that your chamber is oversized.

As far as the powders you're using, I only use CFE, and that's in 9mm. I don't understand your complaint of it being dirty. It was designed to be clean burning. I think that if you are getting sooty cases with CFE, you must be using absolute bottom-end loads.

I hope this helps.

[44MAG#1]

I hope my answer is approperate. If it isnt let me know and I will delete it.
What I do is I load a load I like and if the cases get sooty so be it. A gun is going to get dirty anyway. I have been shooting since I got my first gun from my parents and guns get dirty due to firing.
As to the cases I put mine in a case cleaner and dont worry about it. Winchester FL's soot up the cases alot of the times.
Just put them in the case cleaner and let it run for awhile.

[Petrol & Powder]

Catch 22 - you seem to be fixating on small issues.

I'll offer a few points: Copper plated bullets act more like lead bullets than traditional jacketed bullets. I've never been super impressed with plated bullets and I've had a few guns that just would not shoot them well.

Many powders perform better when you get closer to the upper end of acceptable pressures. (Unique is infamous for that trait). While it is safe to start at the low end of the pressure range, you will often find the load performs better (greater accuracy, less fouling, etc.) when you operate closer to the top end.

The difference between a 1911 with a 4.25" barrel vs. a 5" is mostly sight radius and a little bit of velocity. You don't need to tailor loads for the shorter barrel.

The comment, "Did some researching and discussing on the ol' interwebs and found Kimbers tend to like the higher end of the data ranges." - I don't know who thinks Kimbers are some sort of magical version of the 1911. Kimbers are just one of many 1911 clones and they operate like all of the rest. The tolerances, materials and fitting may be different from some of the others but they aren't a class all to their own.
And BTW, I've owned Kimbers. They are good guns.

Your description of the "sooting of cases", down to measurements of the amount of soot tells me you are focusing on minutia.

SO, my advice is: stop worrying about 4" barrels verses 5" barrels. Stop worrying about some soot on spent casings. Find a load that is within acceptable pressure limits that shoots well in you pistol.

I've shot a lot of 230 grain bullets and a fair amount of 200 gain bullets. Other than a slight difference in point of impact, they both perform very well in a 1911. I am particularly fond on the 200 gr LSWC design and think that is a pretty good "all around bullet" for the 1911 in 45 ACP.
There are a lot of pistol powders that are suitable for the 45 ACP. Some of the proven powders for 200 & 230 grain loads are: Bullseye, 231 and AA#2. I've burned more ww231 than anything else but Bullseye has worked for well over 100 years and is equally as well loved.

Don't wander around in the weeds. Find an acceptable bullet, an acceptable load and practice with that ONE load !

Good Luck !

[DougGuy]

I was going to suggest W231 it's my most used powder in 45 ACP. Yes there are others but I had such good luck with 231 that I never needed to look any farther. Start not at the upper end but near the upper end of published data with 231.

FWIW, I used 700X with heavy 255gr LSWC boolits, this is my pin load. It clears the table with an easily appreciated sense of authority!

[Catch22]

Catch 22 - you seem to be fixating on small issues.

I probably am doing just that. I tend to be detail oriented reloading and looking at small things. I've been doing rifle for a while and just stepping into the handgun stuff, so it's still a bit on the new side.

I'm also an information guy, so I dive all-in and get more info than I'll ever need and try to translate that to what I'm doing. To a fault, sometimes.

Appreciate the info from you and everyone else that's chimed in!

[OS OK]

Smoky cases are cases that didn't have enough start pressure to expand them to the chamber and make them seal, the projectile leaves the case and the poorly lit gas is escaping around the case mouth.

What is your chronograph saying with your loads and what does the load manual recomend? I think your on the low end of any recipe.
Kimber like any other 1911 needs pressure to operate & function & they do not prefer any specific weight of projectile although the slide spring will determine which weight + load will work best as far as ejection & proper function...are the ejected cases literally laying at your feet? If so, too little pressure which would be indicated also by anemic speed over the chrono...

I've been through several profiles in the 200 grain variety...like the Lee SWC's & RN's & TC's but my favorite is the Lyman 452374, 225 grain RN...it is the profile the 1911 was designed around although back in Brownings day I think he started with a 200 grain RN and the Government, I think wanted the 230 grain ball (not sure so don't chew on that too much)

My standard load is the Lyman 452374 RN, PC'd and sized .4525" cast from 11bhn boolit metal w/ 1% Sn added over 4.9 grains of TiteGroup and they run at 832fps 'IIRC'ly'. A very comfy load to shoot.

[tazman]

I have been working with CFE Pistol extensively since it came out. I have found that it doesn't work as well with light loads. You get dirty cases and chambers.
Load it to full or near full power loads and it shines. All the dirt goes away and the accuracy is great. It also gives some extra velocity in some calibers.
I use Titegroup(or Bullseye) for my lighter loads. The soot on the cases doesn't seem to bother accuracy or function. It runs through my measures well and gives good accuracy in my handguns.

I can't say I have ever noticed fire coming out of the chamber on any of my 1911 pistols with any loads I have used. I might be concerned about that.
Discoloration near the case mouth is not a concern.

I have used Titegroup with 200 grain boolits as low as 4.0 grains with good results.

As others have said, plated boolits act more like cast than anything else. I load them similarly.

[Catch22]

I have been working with CFE Pistol extensively since it came out. I have found that it doesn't work as well with light loads. You get dirty cases and chambers.
Load it to full or near full power loads and it shines. All the dirt goes away and the accuracy is great. It also gives some extra velocity in some calibers.
I use Titegroup(or Bullseye) for my lighter loads. The soot on the cases doesn't seem to bother accuracy or function. It runs through my measures well and gives good accuracy in my handguns.

I can't say I have ever noticed fire coming out of the chamber on any of my 1911 pistols with any loads I have used. I might be concerned about that.
Discoloration near the case mouth is not a concern.

I have used Titegroup with 200 grain boolits as low as 4.0 grains with good results.

As others have said, plated boolits act more like cast than anything else. I load them similarly.

I'll give the CFE a bit higher load and try it. Sounds like all my loads were on the light side. I did so with the theory of working up and not going too high.

My start with handgun reloading was with 38 S&W loading 38/200 rounds for an Enfield revolver I have. What I found was the loads I started with were too high, so I erred on the side of caution this time, too much so it seems.

I've got data for the CFE, Titewad, Titegroup, W321 and I think Unique. I'm going to go through each and give them a try higher in the range and see what each does. I'm fortunate enough I can load a few and walk out the back door of the basement and fire them off.

The fire out the chamber is what kinda threw me more than anything. It was just starting to get dusky, so it was noticeable, but I first thought it was out the muzzle. It was a shot or two more that I noticed it was coming straight up out of the chamber as it cycled. I'll be curious to see if it happens with the others.

Being more accustomed to rifles, the sooting and discoloration caught my eye and I may be overthinking it. I've been debating what I've got going on in the process to cause it. More than likely over-analyzing, which I'm prone to doing. But the analyzing data and results is also what I enjoy about reloading, almost as much as shooting.

[Catch22]

Smoky cases are cases that didn't have enough start pressure to expand them to the chamber and make them seal, the projectile leaves the case and the poorly lit gas is escaping around the case mouth.

What is your chronograph saying with your loads and what does the load manual recomend? I think your on the low end of any recipe.
Kimber like any other 1911 needs pressure to operate & function & they do not prefer any specific weight of projectile although the slide spring will determine which weight + load will work best as far as ejection & proper function...are the ejected cases literally laying at your feet? If so, too little pressure which would be indicated also by anemic speed over the chrono...

I've been through several profiles in the 200 grain variety...like the Lee SWC's & RN's & TC's but my favorite is the Lyman 452374, 225 grain RN...it is the profile the 1911 was designed around although back in Brownings day I think he started with a 200 grain RN and the Government, I think wanted the 230 grain ball (not sure so don't chew on that too much)

My standard load is the Lyman 452374 RN, PC'd and sized .4525" cast from 11bhn boolit metal w/ 1% Sn added over 4.9 grains of TiteGroup and they run at 832fps 'IIRC'ly'. A very comfy load to shoot.

I'll have to take a look at those mould styles. Thanks!

[marek313]

As other pointed out sounds like you ran some light loads that didnt seal properly creating soot on brass and unburned powder as expected in this case. Your going to have to bump up your loads so at the very least brass seals properly. Your going to have to figure out where that is for your gun. Also for light loads you want fast burning powders and leave slow burning powders for stout loads. For 45acp, WST and TrailBoss are the cleanest powders you will find but TG should work just fine.

[KVO]

FWIW my .45ACP load with CFE Pistol is 7.0gr with the Mihec 453-200gr HP, drops about 208gr with the penta pins and my range scrap alloy. Good accuracy, cycles reliably in a 5" 1911 with standard weight springs, cases are clean if that is a concern. Standard caveats of reference known load data, etc. apply. As many have said .45ACP is not picky with regards to powder selection and behaves well with most moderately fast to fast burning pistol powders. Hodgdon online has published load data for their distributed powders (Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR).

[6bg6ga]

I was going to suggest W231 it's my most used powder in 45 ACP. Yes there are others but I had such good luck with 231 that I never needed to look any farther. Start not at the upper end but near the upper end of published data with 231.

FWIW, I used 700X with heavy 255gr LSWC boolits, this is my pin load. It clears the table with an easily appreciated sense of authority!

I'll have to second this. My favorite 45acp load is 5.6 gr of 231 with a 230gr RN bullet.

[Catch22]

I managed some time to play some more with these loads today for a bit.

I didn't load any Titewad, though I intend to give it another try at some point and ease up a bit more at a time. I was getting close with 4.2 gr with no soot and just a bit of heat staining.

CFE Pistol I'm still not impressed with, at least not in this gun. I went up to 7.3 gr today and it's still dirty and I'm getting unburned and partially burned powder in the barrel. I may try it in the 9mm, but I'm not liking it in this application. My data is showing I'm at or near the max, depending on the reference.

The W231 I'm having some hope in. 5.9 gr was close, but still a bit of soot. But 6.2 gr was looking pretty good. A couple have a spot where you can see a bit of heat staining,but nothing like what I was seeing.

I've got some data for Unique and Titegroup I'm going to give a try at some point, as well.

[Petrol & Powder]

Catch 22 wrote : ".....The W231 I'm having some hope in. 5.9 gr was close, but still a bit of soot. But 6.2 gr was looking pretty good. A couple have a spot where you can see a bit of heat staining,but nothing like what I was seeing...."

IT'S A GUN ! They get dirty when you shoot them.
The brass isn't going to come out pristine.

[6bg6ga]

I sincerely hope you are loading according to the published load tables. Yes, Petrol & Powder hit the nail on the head. Its going to get dirty when you shoot it regardless of the powder you choose.

[tazman]

catch 22---- You do realize that 7.3 grains is just below starting load for a 200 grain cast boolit(according to the Hodgdon data site) which your plated round will most closely resemble?
I would expect to still have unburned powder and dirt with that load.
That said, do as you will. I only use it in full power loads in the cartridges I load with it.

[Catch22]

Yes, I'm well aware it's a gun. The point is I'm not seeing the heavy sooting on the outside of the case and the abnormal amount of crap in the barrel/chamber that I was with the other loads. Not normal shooting "dirty", inefficient load dirty. As I also said, I'm seeing the case expansion where I wasn't before. The fact that the W321 load didn't have all that is why I said I had some hope in it. It simply had the little bit of heat staining which I'm accustomed to seeing out of this gun with factory loads, not the abnormal stuff I was seeing.

As I said, I'm newer to handgun loads, so I'm trying to adjust the indicators for everything from rifle. I'm working on the assumption that abnormal amounts of soot, partially or unburned powder, and the like are indicators of the load not being where it should be.

Yes, I'm using published data from several different sources. I have pages of notes for each load before I even go down to the bench.

catch 22---- You do realize that 7.3 grains is just below starting load for a 200 grain cast boolit(according to the Hodgdon data site) which your plated round will most closely resemble?
I would expect to still have unburned powder and dirt with that load.
That said, do as you will. I only use it in full power loads in the cartridges I load with it.

I see what you're talking about. I was using the jacketed data thinking plated would act more like them rather than the lead. That may be were my issue lies. But, that makes sense why it's burning dirty if plated is more similar to cast vs jacketed. I may give that one another shot and work up a bit more. I did a few loads in my 9mm the other day with the CFE and it wasn't bad at all, I had figured on looking at using it there if it wasn't going to work with the 1911.