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Thread: Homosexuality and God

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfustyle View Post
    This is not a question if you read the bible!
    You mean it is not a question if you believe the bible. Reading is not believing.

    Tim
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.
    You know this to be true, how? How do you know it is not just a parable or complete fiction?

    Tim
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I doubt they can change. Any more than we can change from being sinners. Their sin is different in that it is a sin particular to them and not tempting to most of us. But they want to make it "normal" and not a sin.

    The question is not if they can change, the question is, does a church allow sinners who are unrepentant to serve in leadership roles. The UM church has declared that homosexuality is not a sin....that makes no sense!

    All pastors and church leaders sin. If they are worth anything, they recognize their sin and repent. They do not stand at the pulpit and flaunt it or normalize it.
    Could not maybe 2000 years of changes made it such that Homosexuality is no longer a sin. Possibly it no longer is an abomination such as it was millenniums ago. We no longer need to be fruitful and multiply. We have overdone that already. I think the bible is tired after all this time. No longer holds the wisdom it held just a few hundred years ago. I think Confucius' writings that are even older have better weathered the passing of time. Even some of his stuff is stale.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    One at a time, first, you don't know if my rambling thoughts on homosexuals "caught" anyones eye. Or if anyone cares what I think; they shouldn't care. I simply shared what I believe as perhaps a thought provoker for others to consider for themselves. I feel no burden to convience anyone of my position.

    Next, no, I saw no attack, per se, that's your own projection. But you were obviously challenging me to justify what I said. Instead of justification, I say you're a big boy now so you think about it and draw your own conclusions. Or go seek someone who cares what you think.

    Finally, I back up important stuff. As I said before, I'm not trying to build a web following so I'll let you have the floor back now.
    Yup, I mostly don't care what you think. What you said, did catch my eye and I challenged you on it. Not to make you respond but as a message to other readers that what you said was wrong. I said my piece and let it go but Rizzo pick up on it. I guess he as not figured out what kind of forum member are you.

    You and I have each others measure.

    Tim
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battis View Post
    Define free will. We can't choose the moment we were born, who we were born to, where we were born, our eye color, body style, our gender, etc.
    Free will is the illusion that we can be different than we are. That there are forks in the road and it is not predetermined which branch we will follow.

    If you ever feel like a pawn, it might be because you are. Everyone deserves to go to heaven because God put us on our paths and we are going to be whatever he willed.

    If you are born in a ****hole country and have to kill and steal to survive and have never heard of or seen a bible. You are not going to hell.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Free will is the illusion that we can be different than we are. That there are forks in the road and it is not predetermined which branch we will follow.

    If you ever feel like a pawn, it might be because you are. Everyone deserves to go to heaven because God put us on our paths and we are going to be whatever he willed.

    If you are born in a ****hole country and have to kill and steal to survive and have never heard of or seen a bible. You are not going to hell.

    Tim
    Tim, any parent with young children will tell you that they can often predict how their children will act in a specific situation. Sometimes the behavior is consistent with training and sometimes it is contrary to training. Does the parent make the child behave in that way? i think it the same with us and God, he knows how we will choose, but we still choose.

    While I disagree with your first two statements I do agree with the third, and I’ll go even further most of the time.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfustyle View Post
    This is not a question if you read the bible!
    The answer is, when you read the Bible.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Could not maybe 2000 years of changes made it such that Homosexuality is no longer a sin. Possibly it no longer is an abomination such as it was millenniums ago. We no longer need to be fruitful and multiply. We have overdone that already. I think the bible is tired after all this time. No longer holds the wisdom it held just a few hundred years ago. I think Confucius' writings that are even older have better weathered the passing of time. Even some of his stuff is stale.

    Tim
    What part of 'immutable' do you not understand? God does not change, and I would argue that mankind is just as screwed up now as we were in the Old Testament days. Just because, or maybe specifically because I don't want to believe something doesn't mean it isn't still true. I don't deign to claim I understand God, he is so far beyond me that it is ridiculous to think that. But I can struggle to understand His word, and that I do.
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  9. #149
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    Christianity is not a religious buffet where we can pick and choose only what we want.

    Intellectual honesty requires we choose or reject God as He is, whole thing or nothing. I mean, devising a comfortable religious philosophy of our own while claiming we "partially" believe "in God" and then professing ourselves to be Christian based on what we have devised is the ultimate dishonesty.

    God's life rules are for our own good, not his. That includes his preclusion of homosexuality.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Christianity is not a religious buffet where we can pick and choose only what we want.
    Regrettably, is it. We have hundreds of denominations because man has done just that.

    I believe a homosexual is still a Christian, if they accept they are committing a sin. Where the issue arises is when a church redefines God's definition of sin.

    And Tim, you are entitled to your view of the Bible but it does not help those of using the Bible as our term of reference. In my case, I do not believe the Bible is perfect or inerrant, but I believe most of it. If/when God knows we are ready for an update, He will give us a "Newer Testament". Until then, it is His word as best we know.

    For those who may question what parts of the Bible I question it is not that simple to answer. Part of my doubt comes from science. Some from parables that lead me to poor conclusions on how to live my life. Part from knowing man wrote and translated it; man is fallible and every man has an agenda; and lastly, why some books are not included.
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  11. #151
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    I know that it would be hard and probably inappropriate to be specific about what acts homosexuals perform that are sinful. I also imagine that those same acts performed between a man and a woman are considered sinful.

    I guess it is safe to just label the hole basket of sex acts sodomy and say that sodomy is the sin and not a man's love for a man or a woman's love for another woman. I don't believe love is a sin.

    I imagine the same would apply to Trans persons. If they don't engage in sodomy they are not sinning. After gender reassignment surgery, it gets muddy about if they would be homosexual. I think clearly that a woman who identifies as a man and a man who identifies as a woman could marry and not be homosexual. I have seen plenty of marriages where clearly the woman was the one who wore the pants and you don't know that the man did not wear panties in private.

    Tim
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    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Regrettably, is it. We have hundreds of denominations because man has done just that.

    I believe a homosexual is still a Christian, if they accept they are committing a sin. Where the issue arises is when a church redefines God's definition of sin.

    And Tim, you are entitled to your view of the Bible but it does not help those of using the Bible as our term of reference. In my case, I do not believe the Bible is perfect or inerrant, but I believe most of it. If/when God knows we are ready for an update, He will give us a "Newer Testament". Until then, it is His word as best we know.

    For those who may question what parts of the Bible I question it is not that simple to answer. Part of my doubt comes from science. Some from parables that lead me to poor conclusions on how to live my life. Part from knowing man wrote and translated it; man is fallible and every man has an agenda; and lastly, why some books are not included.
    You maybe have missed the point. I don't think you should be leaning so heavily on the Bibles for guidance. The only thing we have that says the Bibles are the word of God is the Bibles themselves. That kind of circular reasoning is illogical.

    There is a huge amount of philosophical literature and the Bible is a proven source of wisdom but the bible is not the best source when trying to determine what is moral or immoral. Making a Cult around a Martyr and declaring the words of his Apostles the word of God, well, I for one don't buy it and two thirds of the people on the planet don't buy it.

    It is just a matter of fact that most people if they follow a religion follow the religion of their parents, the one that is popular where they grew up or convert to the popular religion where they are living. It is often a huge disadvantage if you don't follow the religion popular where you are living.

    In a way I am an Evangelical, I am calling on people to open their eyes and educate themselves more widely and not be constrained to a narrow vision of God and God's plan for the Universe, which includes the realms of the afterlife.

    Parochial Christian views leads to improper discrimination against people who have other beliefs.

    Some people here misunderstand me and consider me an Atheist. I am not an Atheist, I believe in the one and only God the maker of the Universe. I don't believe he created the universe the way it is described in the bible. That is just someone, a humans, not Gods fantasy about how the world was created. The same with the stories about Adam and Eve and Lucifer and the angels. I believe the stories about Jesus' second coming are human wishful thinking.

    Of course devout Christians will call me evil and a heretic. I don't think most Christians are evil, they don't badly discriminate against non-believers. If they are true believers and love all their brothers and sisters, everyone on the planet including Homosexuals, they are good. Good people who practice what it is reported that Jesus taught are the salt of the Earth. Some Christians lord their beliefs over others and wear their religion on their sleeve like a badge of superiority. Just be mindful of what you are becoming. I think you are.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Regrettably, is it. We have hundreds of denominations because man has done just that.
    Don, we have well meaning orthodox denominations who agree with the cardinal points of Christianity but disagree on less critical issues. Like: how deep the water of baptism should be; can salvation be lost and regained; how much sin can we commit before going to hell; how long women's skirts must be; are drums and geetars in church sinful; should the leadership be dominated by the congregation or elected officers; is the KJV the only correct Bible; etc. The thing for thinking people to remember about all those questions is that none of those topics are essential to salvation and no one will go to hell if they get it wrong. Thus, IMHO, (orthodox) denominations are not evil.

    On the other hand, we do have cults claiming to be Christian but teach alternate ways to attain salvation, teaching some variation of what we call "legalism"; i.e., hoping to obtain salvation by works rather than by faith alone in Jesus alone.

    And of course we have a few quasi "denominations" like the Universalists and Christian Science (which is neither Christian nor science) that think all "good" people will go to heaven (if there is one) and, at best, God's eternal life rules in the Bible are only quaint suggestions for the less intelligent folk than themselves. Groups like that are satanic evil, their deluded followers are eternally doomed.

    ... and lastly, why some books are not included.
    You lost me here buddy, I mean, few books are included in scripture. Which books do you mean?
    Last edited by 1hole; 02-02-2020 at 06:08 PM.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Don,........You lost me here buddy, I mean, few books are included in scripture. Which books do you mean?
    https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/chr...the-bible.aspx
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You know this to be true, how? How do you know it is not just a parable or complete fiction?

    Tim
    you don't seem to understand, it's by faith that anyone can believe and it's by faith in jesus that anyone can be saved. ponder this, eternity never ends.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    How much was Paul really changed? Does anyone think he was an unrepentant sinner (a thief, fornicator, etc.) prior to his vision of Jesus? I am sure his life style was above reproach when evaluated by anyone who knew him.

    His goal was to wipe out a message that was contrary to his understanding of how to please God, in other words heresy. He was under the honest impression he was doing God's work. He was corrected by Jesus and that changed the way he looked at pleasing God. The rest is history.
    everyone that knew paul saw how he changed. before god changed him he persecuted the church of god . and god even forgave him of all his sins and saved him from hell. i don't understand why there is so much searching for the truth in a place like this when you can get so many different evaluations by so many people that are not taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word. if you're truly searching for the truth , i am happy for you but this site alone is not enough. no one person could possibly tell all they would need to know in one sentence.

  17. #157
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    Without fail, it seems the people that are always complaining about homosexuality are the ones deeply hidden in the closest masking their own true identity. It’s as if the louder they complain the more they can divert attention away from themselves.
    East Tennessee

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowwolfe View Post
    Without fail, it seems the people that are always complaining about homosexuality are the ones deeply hidden in the closest masking their own true identity. It’s as if the louder they complain the more they can divert attention away from themselves.
    Your blanket statement covers as much as a postage stamp.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    everyone that knew paul saw how he changed. before god changed him he persecuted the church of god . and god even forgave him of all his sins and saved him from hell. i don't understand why there is so much searching for the truth in a place like this when you can get so many different evaluations by so many people that are not taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word. if you're truly searching for the truth , i am happy for you but this site alone is not enough. no one person could possibly tell all they would need to know in one sentence.
    I guess I shouldn't have phrased my comment as a question.

    Paul did not live like the devil before he saw Jesus. The change that people saw in him was he started preaching the Gospel that he once persecuted. Again, he did not go from a drunken fornicator to a devout individual. He was devout pre-conversion.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowwolfe View Post
    Without fail, it seems the people that are always complaining about homosexuality are the ones deeply hidden in the closest masking their own true identity. It’s as if the louder they complain the more they can divert attention away from themselves.
    This, so many times.

    I absolutely LOVE every time an anti-gay Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, Shaman, Community Leader, or whomstever the heck gets caught with his hands in another mans cookie jar.

    Exposing the gross hypocrisy brings me an untold amount of joy.

    That said, I do always sympathize with the painful dichotomy of their lives, having to live in their little world where social norms forced them to constantly justify their actions and repress themselves. That's pretty sad.
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