Homosexuality and God

[1hole]

"Progressive" religious liberals have badly fractured the once stalwart Methodist denomination. (And others as well.)

In the late 70s, I attended a "Wesleyan" Methodist church for several years; fine folk and sound preaching, some of the best I've ever heard. A lot of old line Methodists had split from the arch liberal "United" Methodists. They added "Wesleyan" to distinguish themselves from the secularist corruption of fundamental Christian doctrines under the "United" group's control. (Wesleyan's eventually dropped "Methodist" from their label to further separate themselves from the United Methodists). The U.M.s lost a lot of good people in that but the bosses were obviously Christian in name only and old timers could not be a part of that movement.

United Methodist controllers say they just wanted to make "everyone" feel welcome but that's a specious lie; what they wanted was more people/money.

ALL churches want everyone to feel welcome but few are ready to let social rebels seize control of their pulpits and then spout feel-good (Satanic and non-Christian) worldviews in order to attract a wider audience. And more money. Same things are happening with other once strong denominations.

What motivates denominational leaders to teach counter to scripture? Truth is, they have lost many people and it's hurt contributions so badly the bosses felt they MUST stop preaching Christianity and effectively become nicely dressed "feel good" religious social clubs that won't teach/preach anything that might make unrepentant sinners feel uncomfortable. Such "liberals" have an easy way to deal with uncomfortable personal sins; they simply refuse to say anyone is a lost sinner needing Christ!!

Methodists have a rigid episcobale (top down) system of government. When liberals gain power over anything they hold onto it with tightly clinched claws so it's nearly impossible to throw them out.

Domineering lib controllers always strive to keep descienting views from being heard (as in our government controlled "public" education system and our "scientific" global warming establishment) so they can win every public argument. At least until their whole system of whatever crumbles in its fouled tracks.

[Rizzo]

An how do you know that none of them are born that way. More people than you imagine are born with incomplete or not properly differentiate genitals. How do you know who is born with what predispositions.

Tim

To know: To perceive directly. To know is to be aware of something as a fact or truth.

Getting back on topic, you haven't explained how you know that homosexuals are not born that way.
How can you be so certain of your statement?

So, here we go again 1Hole.
You make a statement and when confronted about it we get crickets.
Chirp, .......Chirp, ......Chirp.

Perhaps you've realized that it is just your opinion?

[dverna]

I did not read nearly any of the respondants but I will relay what happened in my parents church.
The Methodist leadership explained that the physical building and its contents were the property of the national organization. As a member you could stay and abide by the national policy of the Methodist,which supports the LGBTQ or you could leave the church.
In my parents church the vast majority have decided to leave their church. The Methodist were barely able to supply a minister for services before this. It is predicted the church will fold as the group leaving is the financial backbone of the church.
The end result is a church that is 100 y.o. will close its doors. This policy can not be acceptable to God. Closing local churches can not be a positive thing.

It is surely a sad outcome. Regrettably, in many churches it comes down to money. Those who stay are those who must support a church financially.

The UM has put itself in a no-win situation when about 1/2 of their members will not support the new LGBTQ thinking. The 1/2 that does support the new thinking are in for a rough ride as I doubt people are going to flock to them - so where will the funding come from. The traditional UM church goers will find other churches that are more in line with their scriptural beliefs.

[1hole]

So, here we go again 1Hole.
You make a statement and when confronted about it we get crickets.

Rizzo, I made my statement and that's enough. I believe my statements are clear enough to be understood and I have no interest in jousting with anyone who's just looking for a sputter fight. I'm not trying to build a website guru image and I feel no need to struggle around about it.

What do you think would be gained by publically thrashing around about something that won't change anyone's mind an inch anyway?

This question reminds me of a wise story I once heard, it's about why no one should wrestle with pigs on their own ground. Seems no one really wins, the pigs enjoy it and the wrestler gets as muddy as the pigs. There's real wisdom in that story.

(Seems the Republican Senate isn't interested in any more mud wallowing with Schief/Nadler/Peloesy and the DNC's "fake news" media; I like that too. )

[dtknowles]

I think maybe so real truth is being told. The divided United Methodist Church is splitting over a vision of the future.
The choice appears to be a smaller Church that retains its current values or a growing Church that can appeal to younger people.
Sort of like what happened in the Jewish Faith. Some stayed Orthodox and some went reformed.
Not so many Orthodox Jews anymore.
Same thing happened with Muslims, Some stayed Sunni and some reformed to Shia.
Christians did it once already or really many times
Catholics
Episcopalians
LDS
Baptists
Lutherans
Methodists
Congregational
Pentecostals
Coptic
Eastern Orthodox
and more.

There is but one God but not a lot of agreement on what God wants. I get criticized because I have my own opinion and don't support any particular religion. It is clear we all are wrong or at best some tiny congregation somewhere might be right but I doubt it.

Tim

[kungfustyle]

This is not a question if you read the bible!

[ioon44]

This!

[1hole]

Amen.

I know what I "THINK" isn't what matters, God doesn't answer to me. I don't know anything that He doesn't know better and He won't bend to my will so it's what HIS book of scripture says that matters; scripture is HIS message to all mankind and we don't have the option of editing it to say what we may like better.

Men of good will can and do honestly differ in how to apply some parts of the Bible but there is no ambiguity in the cardinal points. One of the most clearly stated points is that the "gay" lifestyle is the wrong way to live and nothing I or anyone else can "think" will change it. LGBTDNC United Methodists, Episcopals, et al, know that, now they should actually think about it.

[Battis]

I have to ask, and I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs (I was raised Catholic): does anyone really believe that a gay man, or woman, can become straight? I do not condone their lifestyle at all, but can they change? And, if God created everything, did he not create gay people?

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, I made my statement and that's enough. I believe my statements are clear enough to be understood and I have no interest in jousting with anyone who's just looking for a sputter fight. I'm not trying to build a website guru image and I feel no need to struggle around about it.

What do you think would be gained by publically thrashing around about something that won't change anyone's mind an inch anyway?

This question reminds me of a wise story I once heard, it's about why no one should wrestle with pigs on their own ground. Seems no one really wins, the pigs enjoy it and the wrestler gets as muddy as the pigs. There's real wisdom in that story.

(Seems the Republican Senate isn't interested in any more mud wallowing with Schief/Nadler/Peloesy and the DNC's "fake news" media; I like that too. )

Look, I'll leave it with this,...it's pretty simple.
You made a statement that caught my and other's eye.
I wondered how you could make such a statement, so I asked.
It's that simple.

You seem to take it as some sort of attack on you, which it isn't.
Now you state that you made your statement and that is enough.

If you state something, you should be ready to back it up.
Otherwise you look like someone with no accountability....or credibility.

[a danl]

I have to ask, and I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs (I was raised Catholic): does anyone really believe that a gay man, or woman, can become straight? I do not condone their lifestyle at all, but can they change? And, if God created everything, did he not create gay people?

god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.

[dverna]

I have to ask, and I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs (I was raised Catholic): does anyone really believe that a gay man, or woman, can become straight? I do not condone their lifestyle at all, but can they change? And, if God created everything, did he not create gay people?

I doubt they can change. Any more than we can change from being sinners. Their sin is different in that it is a sin particular to them and not tempting to most of us. But they want to make it "normal" and not a sin.

The question is not if they can change, the question is, does a church allow sinners who are unrepentant to serve in leadership roles. The UM church has declared that homosexuality is not a sin....that makes no sense!

All pastors and church leaders sin. If they are worth anything, they recognize their sin and repent. They do not stand at the pulpit and flaunt it or normalize it.

[Ickisrulz]

god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.

How much was Paul really changed? Does anyone think he was an unrepentant sinner (a thief, fornicator, etc.) prior to his vision of Jesus? I am sure his life style was above reproach when evaluated by anyone who knew him.

His goal was to wipe out a message that was contrary to his understanding of how to please God, in other words heresy. He was under the honest impression he was doing God's work. He was corrected by Jesus and that changed the way he looked at pleasing God. The rest is history.

[Wayne Smith]

To answer the question are homosexuals born that way? Of course they are, we are all born polysexual. We are all born sinners, homosexual behavior is only one relatively minor iteration of sin.

What is interesting to note is that in the Old Testament every use of the term is a verb. That is, God is condemning the behavior and nothing more. There is not an issue of what we consider identity. Besides, if I am a Christian my identity is in Christ and any other identity placed before that is sinful. That is, there is no such thing as a 'homosexual Christian' - that very statement of identity breaks the first commandment.

[1hole]

Look, I'll leave it with this,...it's pretty simple.
You made a statement that caught my and other's eye.
I wondered how you could make such a statement, so I asked.
It's that simple.

You seem to take it as some sort of attack on you, which it isn't.
Now you state that you made your statement and that is enough.

If you state something, you should be ready to back it up.
Otherwise you look like someone with no accountability....or credibility.

One at a time, first, you don't know if my rambling thoughts on homosexuals "caught" anyones eye. Or if anyone cares what I think; they shouldn't care. I simply shared what I believe as perhaps a thought provoker for others to consider for themselves. I feel no burden to convience anyone of my position.

Next, no, I saw no attack, per se, that's your own projection. But you were obviously challenging me to justify what I said. Instead of justification, I say you're a big boy now so you think about it and draw your own conclusions. Or go seek someone who cares what you think.

Finally, I back up important stuff. As I said before, I'm not trying to build a web following so I'll let you have the floor back now.

[Battis]

Define free will. We can't choose the moment we were born, who we were born to, where we were born, our eye color, body style, our gender, etc.

[dtknowles]

This is not a question if you read the bible!

You mean it is not a question if you believe the bible. Reading is not believing.

Tim

[dtknowles]

god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.

You know this to be true, how? How do you know it is not just a parable or complete fiction?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I doubt they can change. Any more than we can change from being sinners. Their sin is different in that it is a sin particular to them and not tempting to most of us. But they want to make it "normal" and not a sin.

The question is not if they can change, the question is, does a church allow sinners who are unrepentant to serve in leadership roles. The UM church has declared that homosexuality is not a sin....that makes no sense!

All pastors and church leaders sin. If they are worth anything, they recognize their sin and repent. They do not stand at the pulpit and flaunt it or normalize it.

Could not maybe 2000 years of changes made it such that Homosexuality is no longer a sin. Possibly it no longer is an abomination such as it was millenniums ago. We no longer need to be fruitful and multiply. We have overdone that already. I think the bible is tired after all this time. No longer holds the wisdom it held just a few hundred years ago. I think Confucius' writings that are even older have better weathered the passing of time. Even some of his stuff is stale.

Tim

[dtknowles]

One at a time, first, you don't know if my rambling thoughts on homosexuals "caught" anyones eye. Or if anyone cares what I think; they shouldn't care. I simply shared what I believe as perhaps a thought provoker for others to consider for themselves. I feel no burden to convience anyone of my position.

Next, no, I saw no attack, per se, that's your own projection. But you were obviously challenging me to justify what I said. Instead of justification, I say you're a big boy now so you think about it and draw your own conclusions. Or go seek someone who cares what you think.

Finally, I back up important stuff. As I said before, I'm not trying to build a web following so I'll let you have the floor back now.

Yup, I mostly don't care what you think. What you said, did catch my eye and I challenged you on it. Not to make you respond but as a message to other readers that what you said was wrong. I said my piece and let it go but Rizzo pick up on it. I guess he as not figured out what kind of forum member are you.

You and I have each others measure.

Tim