Homosexuality and God

[6bg6ga]

I've tried to wade thru ten pages of this in the attempt to understand just a tad better. First of all I'm not homosexual. I do have a rather different take on religion simple because I watched my Father drive himself and those around him nuts worrying about whether he committed a sin. I watched my parents go to confession Saturday evening insert Catholic family here and then go to church on Sunday. Dad might watch TV and accidentally see something that was questionable and then wonder if he sinned and run back to church again. My thinking is a little goes a long way. I've watched different religions use guilt as a method of obtaining a better Sunday offering while wondering to myself are they really doing good by the people they are supposed to serve. You ask about homosexuality and God but yet it makes me wonder if some aren't trying to be judge and jury. God is supposed to be all knowing all loving. Wouldn't you think that God since he is all knowing would know for example that (Jack 47) was a blooming homosexual? That brings up a question in my mind and that is why would God allow Jack47 to be born knowing that he would be a blooming homosexual? Do you suppose that God knew that Jack 47 was a homosexual and allowed him to live simply because of his actions he might sway others not to be homosexuals or does God allow Jack 47 to be a homo simply so God can forgive Jack47?

You all speak of the bible and I have tried to understand it but honestly and no disrespect meant it simply seems illogical to me yet there are instances that have been proven. All I see are churches that try to benefit as a result of the amount of money they take in from Sunday's collection. Maybe some religions do provide a service. Back to God and homosexuals.... Ok, it has to be a sin I would assume but is it any different than the guy that fornicates with a woman whom he isn't married to? Aren't both bad sins? How does one sin fall into the category where it should be forgiven and another isn't? Maybe the sin of homosexuality is more grievous in that its possibly as sin against nature also? Even the common barn animals know that they mate with the opposite sex heck some animals mate for life which is probably better than some people here.

[a danl]

I've tried to wade thru ten pages of this in the attempt to understand just a tad better. First of all I'm not homosexual. I do have a rather different take on religion simple because I watched my Father drive himself and those around him nuts worrying about whether he committed a sin. I watched my parents go to confession Saturday evening insert Catholic family here and then go to church on Sunday. Dad might watch TV and accidentally see something that was questionable and then wonder if he sinned and run back to church again. My thinking is a little goes a long way. I've watched different religions use guilt as a method of obtaining a better Sunday offering while wondering to myself are they really doing good by the people they are supposed to serve. You ask about homosexuality and God but yet it makes me wonder if some aren't trying to be judge and jury. God is supposed to be all knowing all loving. Wouldn't you think that God since he is all knowing would know for example that (Jack 47) was a blooming homosexual? That brings up a question in my mind and that is why would God allow Jack47 to be born knowing that he would be a blooming homosexual? Do you suppose that God knew that Jack 47 was a homosexual and allowed him to live simply because of his actions he might sway others not to be homosexuals or does God allow Jack 47 to be a homo simply so God can forgive Jack47?

You all speak of the bible and I have tried to understand it but honestly and no disrespect meant it simply seems illogical to me yet there are instances that have been proven. All I see are churches that try to benefit as a result of the amount of money they take in from Sunday's collection. Maybe some religions do provide a service. Back to God and homosexuals.... Ok, it has to be a sin I would assume but is it any different than the guy that fornicates with a woman whom he isn't married to? Aren't both bad sins? How does one sin fall into the category where it should be forgiven and another isn't? Maybe the sin of homosexuality is more grievous in that its possibly as sin against nature also? Even the common barn animals know that they mate with the opposite sex heck some animals mate for life which is probably better than some people here.

there are good churches out there, if you go on line and check them out you can even listen to their sermons, and by the way if all they want is your money then leave because you can find a biblical answer in 2 corinthians chapter 9 verse 7. please continue your search because god cares about you and your family.

[dverna]

I know of no loop hole in the Bible for those who have not heard the Gospel message to be saved. That is why people have been willing to sacrifice their lives to deliver this message for the last 2000 years.

It may not seem fair to some. But it is important to remember that the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins. The Bible repeats this over and over. Some people will hear the message and some of those will respond and be saved. There just isn't any other way outlined in Scripture.

If you are correct, God is neither fair or just. I hope you are incorrect, as to worship a God that is unjust is not in the cards for me. I will choose to believe differently as I trust God more than I trust man...any man.

The Bible was written by a small sub set of the world in a small area of the earth. It makes no sense to apply it to those who had no way to know differently.

[1hole]

I watched my Father drive himself and those around him nuts worrying about whether he committed a sin. I watched my parents go to confession Saturday evening insert Catholic family here and then go to church on Sunday.

I'm sorry about your father but I've watched the same corrosive effect from Catholicism and other denominations as well.

Keeping people forever in fear of going to hell to control them is understandable in a way but it's very bad theology and they shouldn't be that way. Jesus has paid the price of our sins, all of them, and to teach people that may not be quite enough for some folk to pass some test and go to heaven is a damnable lie.

Jesus didn't lie when he said he had come to bring us his peace, a peace that passes understanding. He didn't say carrying his burden is light to lie to us. Any minister working to keep his charges in fear and trembling of Jesus' anger to control them is NOT teaching the word of God.

Jesus never said any minister/priest can stand between Him and his followers, that idea is also a lie.

As Christians we will never be perfect in this life, we can and will stumble and sin from time to time, but there's ONLY ONE SIN that sends anyone to hell and that is unbelief and a lack of faith (trust) in Jesus as Lord and Savior, not trusting in ourselves -- or in our faulty "church leaders" and baseless "church traditions".

Ministers who speak/teach otherwise to their flock must first ignore Romans chapter 1 to 9. Church captive born-again believers who want to break those horrible emotional ties of religious legalism's spiritual bondage should read the same.

How does one sin fall into the category where it should be forgiven and another isn't?

All sin must be forgiven, without that none of us could ever survive in the Holy presence of God. And the blood of Jesus fully covered our sins - all of them - and He fully paid for our forgiveness some 2,000 years ago. Thus, there is no "purgatory" or half-way house where men must somehow work off sins Jesus hasn't already paid for. (See John 3:17-18 to know exactly who is fully covered by Jesus' unearned, undeserved gift and know it is fully gained at the moment of our mortal death, not after some future badly misunderstood "judgement day".)

How could anyone live an abundant and peaceful spiritual life if he had to tremble at the very thought of meeting the Lord face to face. I ain't much at best and I do my share of wrong things (okay, wrong thoughts) but I pray for His immediate return every night! I know whom I have believed ... and it ain't in me I trust ... or in my preacher, etc.! (2 Tim 12-14. )

Praise the Lord, his heaven is not a "maybe later" reward - or a "maybe hell" if you aren't quite good enough thing as some (probably) well meaning men/denominations wrongly teach in order to incite fear and more tightly control their flock!

Finally, on homosexuals:

We are all born with multiple latent talents and propensities for this and that but no one is born helpless with no control in what parts of our nature we feed and those we subdue. I mean, you may have propensity to love and play basketball and, if you work at it, you could learn to be very good at it but no one HAS to play basketball! I may have a propensity and talent to rob banks but I'm no robot so I don't absolutely have to rob banks.

Most of us have some strong bent to some sin but we can control the bad in ourselves and most of us do exactly that ... because we want to.

Ditto homosexuals. If they want to live straight they can but, like committed smokers, none of them will ever beat it if they like it so much they really don't want out of that lifestyle. Touchy-feely, highly eddicated innerlecsul libberal's claims otherwise is a blatant lie that doesn't help anyone.

[snowwolfe]

God always gets credit for everything good. Then for the bad.......well you know, it’s all that free will stuff. Seems he can make the earth and everything on it but he doesn’t have the ability to wire people correctly or stop kids from being molested, abused, born with birth defects,or to watch them die of disease. But hey, it’s all part of the plan, right?

[dtknowles]

Yes, it's the only way for us to get where we're going. But, if you can find, or invent, another heavenly place for people that you approve of then find a spiritual landlord who will listen to you; then maybe you can have it your way. But you simply can't do that with the Christian God. !

"The Christian God"

If you worship "the Christian God" then you are worshiping a false idol. There is but one God the God for everyone, Christian and others. If you think the Christians have their own God and others have a different God you are wrong.

Christians think that God want them to do the New Testament thing. The Muslims think that God wants them to do the Koran thing. The Jews think that God wants them to do the Torah thing. God just wants them to do the right thing and people wrote some books as guides and claimed that God told them what to write. They did that because if you told them you made it up nobody would listen but if you claim that God spoke to you, some will follow you, kind of like Moses or Mohammad or the Apostles. The Apostles took a different tact, claimed that a man they followed was God made man and that he rose from the dead. Kind of an new spin. So God did not dictate the New Testament, it is just the writings of some guys who followed a guy who claimed to be God. They claimed he performed miracles. They claimed he rose from the dead. Did anyone who did not follow Jesus support those claims, independent writing to corroborate the Apostles claims. It is not like the Apostles were the only literate people in the region. Why no other writings about Jesus. Certainly if someone rose from the dead it would get more coverage.

Tim

Tim

[dtknowles]

I know of no loop hole in the Bible for those who have not heard the Gospel message to be saved. That is why people have been willing to sacrifice their lives to deliver this message for the last 2000 years.

It may not seem fair to some. But it is important to remember that the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins. The Bible repeats this over and over. Some people will hear the message and some of those will respond and be saved. There just isn't any other way outlined in Scripture.

I is not true that "the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins." Christians believe that. That does not make it a fact. I suggest that everyone will be saved because what we do is what God made is do. We are all God's tools.

Tim

[dtknowles]

how can a man be a man of god if he worships the wrong god? there is only one god and he is the creature of everything including mankind.

First, God should be capitalized. It is a proper name if you are talking about the one and only creator of the Universe. If you are not worshiping that God then you are not worshiping God.

I like that you said "he is the creature of everything including mankind." Yes, God is in everything everywhere for all time but you have your pronoun wrong. God is not male. Read my writings for an understanding of how to refer to God in a non-gender specific manner. God transcends sex and gender.

One of the huge drawbacks of Abrahamic religions is they are strongly Patriarchal. It is a reflection of the society at the time the Torah, Bible and Koran were written. It is one of the ways that those religions are not timeless.

God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, makes me cringe. I understand how it happened but it is so antiquated but still today people use it is suppress the rights of women.

A truly timeless expression of the "Will of God" would not be flawed the way the Torah, Bible and Koran are.
It would be a clear expression of goodness with no coloring by the social structures of the time of its writing.

To tie this back to the original subject. The problem with homosexuality is that too often the sex is not and expression of love. The sharing of sexual pleasure to be approved by God needs to be an expression of love not some headonistic taking of pleasure. That is also why prostitution is a sin. Monogamy is not the real requirement, the requirement needs to be that sex must not destroy love it need to make love. Infidelity is:

"the action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner" it is not sex outside of marriage it is being unfaithful. If sex hurts someone and not just physically then it is a sin. If you engage is sex that destroys love then it is a sin. Homosexuals who are just whoring around are sinners, if the only engage is sex for love it is not a sin. A man who loves a man is not a sinner but a lover and has God's favor. A man who has sex with men only for pleasure is a sinner and has no favor with God.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Holy schnikes, dtknowles.

That was probably the most well formulated and educated comment on religion I've *ever* seen from this site. I was beginning to lose hope. I'm seriously impressed at both the quality of the contribution, as well as the complete deconstruction of the majority of the arguments from less educated and bigoted posters on in this thread (and forum as a whole). I'm not a religious man, but every other bible, koran, or torah thumper on this forum should look to your example for how to be a man of God. People like you will make the world a better place.

My helmets off to you.

Thanks for the praise. We can and do make the world a better place. I imagine if you are praising me then you are helping too. I really think God if he measures us for an afterlife measures how much we made the world better because we were here.

I could even imagine that our life is a testing ground for a role as an Angel in the afterlife. If you can demonstrate that you can make the world better then imagine how much better you could make it if you were an Angel. Of course if you let it go to your head then you are committing the sin of pride.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

I is not true that "the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins." Christians believe that. That does not make it a fact. I suggest that everyone will be saved because what we do is what God made is do. We are all God's tools.

Tim

Let me point out the obvious:

For the Christian, the authority for faith and conduct is the Bible. What I wrote is what the Bible says, as you pointed out.

Your system of beliefs comes from what you pick and choose from the Bible and your own imagination.

[Thundarstick]

The depth of depravity and ignorance that continues to be brought into the light in this sub forum is simply amazing and repulsive! I pray to God someone isn't wrongly swayed by the evil parlance some spew as enlightened truth!

[6bg6ga]

Where I was raised in Iowa I frankly never came across one single church that didn't dwell on what they wanted you to give on Sunday morning. Being raised Catholic I remember every single Sunday morning the priest used to go over and over how we the people should be giving 5% of our income to the church. Other churches ask for 10% the first 10%. Some ask you to fill out a financial statement before you are allowed to join. The Christian Antioch Christian church I enjoyed going to before we moved went thru about 8 weeks of giving and yet boosted on having brought in 1.5 million dollars from January until April of the year. Eight Sundays in a row were devoted to giving and how we were cheating God if we didn't give the first 10% of our wages. I repaired audio equipment at the church that needed repaired in order to restore its functionality and didn't charge either for parts or my time and was told I could not consider that part of my offering to the church.

Homosexuality and the Christian Church.... seems they welcomed them openly into the church an abomination in my mind having grown up knowing that being a Lesbian or a blatant Homosexual was wrong. I am neither by the way.

Was never taught that I had to read the Bible in order to go the heaven. Based on what I have seen personally I tend to wonder if it isn't more about the money than it is about saving the soul. Each church seems to want to condemn other churches. I worked in different churches due to my occupation and every single church told me that for example the Baptist church was doing things right and the Christian church wasn't. No matter what church I mentioned some denomination was right and another was wrong. I by the way grew up being told the Catholic Church was the one true church. The Lutheran church was an result of people being unsatisfied with the Catholic church teachings and so forth. As a possible result one church condemns Homosexuality while another embraces it. It makes no sense to me. By the way I was also taught "As long as one or more is gathered in my name I also am there." So based on that ...are churches necessary if one can simply pray to God on his/her own?

[dverna]

6bg6ga,

God is where you find Him, but there is value in fellowship with other Christians. Much like posting in this forum.

I personally do not believe in tithing. It was needed in the OT to provide for priests and the destitute. We now have many government safety nets that help those less fortunate. I see EBT cards being used at grocery stores by people who appear to not need them...one time the user stepped out of Krogers and into a Cadillac...but I am sure it must have not been hers...still?

Every church needs funding to support staff and maintenance, so I do contribute what I feel is fair to me. Our current church competed a campaign to raise over $200k for a special needs facility which I did not support. Making it easier for those with special needs, or with special needs children, to attend church seemed self-serving to me. This church already airs its service on the radio, TV and over the internet...so people can hear the word without attending. BTW, I have a special needs son so I speak with some experience. And this facility will need to be staffed, creating another one or two positions, and we already support $1 million in salaries alone! This, in a city of 4000 people.

The bigger a church gets, the more it needs cash.

[Ickisrulz]

Where I was raised in Iowa I frankly never came across one single church that didn't dwell on what they wanted you to give on Sunday morning. Being raised Catholic I remember every single Sunday morning the priest used to go over and over how we the people should be giving 5% of our income to the church. Other churches ask for 10% the first 10%. Some ask you to fill out a financial statement before you are allowed to join. The Christian Antioch Christian church I enjoyed going to before we moved went thru about 8 weeks of giving and yet boosted on having brought in 1.5 million dollars from January until April of the year. Eight Sundays in a row were devoted to giving and how we were cheating God if we didn't give the first 10% of our wages. I repaired audio equipment at the church that needed repaired in order to restore its functionality and didn't charge either for parts or my time and was told I could not consider that part of my offering to the church.

Homosexuality and the Christian Church.... seems they welcomed them openly into the church an abomination in my mind having grown up knowing that being a Lesbian or a blatant Homosexual was wrong. I am neither by the way.

Was never taught that I had to read the Bible in order to go the heaven. Based on what I have seen personally I tend to wonder if it isn't more about the money than it is about saving the soul. Each church seems to want to condemn other churches. I worked in different churches due to my occupation and every single church told me that for example the Baptist church was doing things right and the Christian church wasn't. No matter what church I mentioned some denomination was right and another was wrong. I by the way grew up being told the Catholic Church was the one true church. The Lutheran church was an result of people being unsatisfied with the Catholic church teachings and so forth. As a possible result one church condemns Homosexuality while another embraces it. It makes no sense to me. By the way I was also taught "As long as one or more is gathered in my name I also am there." So based on that ...are churches necessary if one can simply pray to God on his/her own?

What church denomination is most correct in its doctrine? The one that adheres closest to the teachings of the New Testament. After all, this is the source document for Christianity. That is why it is important for a person to be biblically literate. No church will be 100% correct, but it should get the big things right (e.g., homosexual behavior is a sin, fornication is a sin).

The quote is "when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there am I in their midst." The writer of the letter to the Hebrews warned the readers to keep fellowship with other believers for encouragement. Are churches necessary? Many people meet in private homes for Bible study and worship (then what sometimes happens is the group gets too big and needs to find another place to meet). An individual can pray or worship alone, of course. We also have a great deal of teaching material that we can read on our own.

I have never been to a church that made an issue out of money and giving. Had I ever been confronted with this I would not have gone back. In my opinion a break in the service to take up a collection is disruptive without need, but that is how it is done. In Jesus' time, the Temple had a collection box where people would give their money without recognition or compulsion (ideally anyway)*. I'd like to see this method used. For the record, tithing was an Old Testament Law that does not apply to the Church.

*Donations to the Temple were split between the poor and Temple/priest maintenance.

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ga,

God is where you find Him, but there is value in fellowship with other Christians. Much like posting in this forum.

I personally do not believe in tithing. It was needed in the OT to provide for priests and the destitute. We now have many government safety nets that help those less fortunate. I see EBT cards being used at grocery stores by people who appear to not need them...one time the user stepped out of Krogers and into a Cadillac...but I am sure it must have not been hers...still?

Every church needs funding to support staff and maintenance, so I do contribute what I feel is fair to me. Our current church competed a campaign to raise over $200k for a special needs facility which I did not support. Making it easier for those with special needs, or with special needs children, to attend church seemed self-serving to me. This church already airs its service on the radio, TV and over the internet...so people can hear the word without attending. BTW, I have a special needs son so I speak with some experience. And this facility will need to be staffed, creating another one or two positions, and we already support $1 million in salaries alone! This, in a city of 4000 people.

The bigger a church gets, the more it needs cash.

In the case of the Antioch Christian church....my opinion here. More money equals more ways to spend the money.

[a danl]

God always gets credit for everything good. Then for the bad.......well you know, it’s all that free will stuff. Seems he can make the earth and everything on it but he doesn’t have the ability to wire people correctly or stop kids from being molested, abused, born with birth defects,or to watch them die of disease. But hey, it’s all part of the plan, right?

why does everybody always blame god for the bad that happens when in fact they should be blaming the one who caused it in the first place,,,,satan

[a danl]

First, God should be capitalized. It is a proper name if you are talking about the one and only creator of the Universe. If you are not worshiping that God then you are not worshiping God.

I like that you said "he is the creature of everything including mankind." Yes, God is in everything everywhere for all time but you have your pronoun wrong. God is not male. Read my writings for an understanding of how to refer to God in a non-gender specific manner. God transcends sex and gender.

One of the huge drawbacks of Abrahamic religions is they are strongly Patriarchal. It is a reflection of the society at the time the Torah, Bible and Koran were written. It is one of the ways that those religions are not timeless.

God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, makes me cringe. I understand how it happened but it is so antiquated but still today people use it is suppress the rights of women.

A truly timeless expression of the "Will of God" would not be flawed the way the Torah, Bible and Koran are.
It would be a clear expression of goodness with no coloring by the social structures of the time of its writing.

To tie this back to the original subject. The problem with homosexuality is that too often the sex is not and expression of love. The sharing of sexual pleasure to be approved by God needs to be an expression of love not some headonistic taking of pleasure. That is also why prostitution is a sin. Monogamy is not the real requirement, the requirement needs to be that sex must not destroy love it need to make love. Infidelity is:

"the action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner" it is not sex outside of marriage it is being unfaithful. If sex hurts someone and not just physically then it is a sin. If you engage is sex that destroys love then it is a sin. Homosexuals who are just whoring around are sinners, if the only engage is sex for love it is not a sin. A man who loves a man is not a sinner but a lover and has God's favor. A man who has sex with men only for pleasure is a sinner and has no favor with God.

Tim

yes, you're correct God should be with a capital , also God is a spirit and He is referred as our Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. remember that Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He also said "I and the Father are one" that is a quote from John 10 vs;30. also i do not agree with your last segment of your reply, most of it is just your opinion , not biblical backup

[1hole]

Being raised Catholic I remember every single Sunday morning the priest used to go over and over how we the people should be giving 5% of our income to the church. Other churches ask for 10% .... was told I could not consider that (work) part of my offering to the church.

See ** below.

Homosexuality and the Christian Church.... seems they welcomed them openly into the church an abomination in my mind

Open LBGTs are blatant sinners who flaunt their sin before us and effectively shake their defiant fists in the face of God; that's abominable. Sure, the rest of us are also sinners but few of us are happy about it or flaunt our (intermittent and unintentional) sin before the public and no one of us defies God in doing it. So, yes, we all sin but there's a vast difference in heart between them and the rest of us.

I pray for sinners, including queers. There are two in my family at large and a couple more in my extended circle of friends; personally, I love them. I welcome them to come in and sit in our pews but there's no way I or my congregation is going to ordain or even allow one to speak for God from the podium, never mind being a church officer.

Was never taught that I had to read the Bible in order to go the heaven.

Bible reading, of itself, itself has no part in getting into heaven but the Bible is God's way of communicating to his people. (This forum shows how those who are not his people can read it and not understand or learn a thing!) We cannot know God very well if we neglect getting to know his words to us and that comes from Bible reading ... and maybe some intense study.

IMHO, a religious group who says you don't need to read the Bible if you just listen to them should be avoided. They know the less their followers know about what the Bible actually says will keep pew people shallow, ignorant and more receptive to that leader's slick religious BS.

It's a common tactic of religious cults to effectively tell their victims, "By yourself, you can't understand that the Bible doesn't mean what it says, only we can tell you what it really means according to our leader's traditions and our special publications." Gag.

Some cult groups try running in some selections of the apocryphal books. Some invent whole new Bible "translations" which are not translations at all (like Jehovah Witnesses). Some add a vast collection of home-made additions (like Mormons). Double gag.

..are churches necessary if one can simply pray to God on his/her own?

I assume you mean church meeting houses? (First, the "church" is properly defined as all of the called out people of God - i.e., the born again people from any or no denomination.) Anyway, there are no mandatory church meetings for study or prayer. BUT, we are cautioned to not forget gathering together for worship (Heb. 10:25). Independently, we each draw strength from gathering in study, praise, prayer and worship. The assembly also draws strength from us too, so, yes, we should attend meetings with a good group when we can but it's no part of the doctrine of salvation.

Bible reading is a major part of God's speaking to us.

Prayers: Our prayers are (or should be) thought of as our conversation back to God. And, like conversation, there is no wrong or right time nor any special format (or repatricious beads) for us to speak back to our Father. Many of us have frequent conversational prayers scattered throughout the day. Our Father is concerned to hear from us, he doesn't care if we pray kneeling or standing, in chapel or Walmart, swimming or lying in bed, eyes opened or closed, walking or driving, brief or long, happy or broken hearted, speaking of our needs or lifting our thanks, etc. What I mean is, Christian prayers aren't limited to any form of papel oversight.

** Tithing is NOT a Christian requirement ... but a lot of us freely do it anyway; YOU decide if your labor and parts are part of your contribution to church operations, not some money hungry church officer! Seems most of us find that the money we have left after giving usually goes as far as it would have if we'd kept it - I think that's a God thing!

[bmortell]

I like how people say the bible tells them how to live their lives. but then everytime someone brings up a thread asking what the bible says about a subject of people lives theres several hundred posts debating eachother

[Ickisrulz]

I like how people say the bible tells them how to live their lives. but then everytime someone brings up a thread asking what the bible says about a subject of people lives theres several hundred posts debating eachother

Actually, if you look at this thread, the members who profess to be Bible-believing Christians universally understand homosexual behavior to be a sin per the Bible. I didn't see any disagreement among the Christians about that whatsoever.

There was some disagreement concerning the biological component of homosexual orientation. But that is not the same thing as behavior.