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Thread: Homosexuality and God

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    Wolfe you think clearly ... but not far enough ahead.

    Yes, God made all men ... but he didn't mandate that men live in rebelious opposition to the "Maker's Instruction Manual" or as slaves to our baser impulses. I sin, you sin, we all sin but that's no justification for any of us to waller in the depths of sin and demand others to pat us on the head in loving approval.

    It appears homos have been around since the beginning of time but, so what, it's a sin, a bad practice; how long does it take for a bad practice to become good? I mean, our Maker said it's not a good way to live and he didn't say that to prevent anyone from having fun. Again, we are all sinners by nature but no one is powerless over himself and we don't have to live sinfully.

    Homosexuals are motivated by several factors, none of which change the fact that it's not a healthy way to live. Fact is, it's a personal choice; it's certainly not a DNA mandate as they have claimed. Their choice is a sin against humanity, same as stealing, raging envy, lying about others and murder are sins against humanity. Those people who have a mental propensity to follow that nasty path are no more helpless about what they do than others who have a natural propensity to steal, abuse children, rape women and commit murder.

    Christians do not want to hang or burn homos in the public square.

    They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now. We would like for them to see the error of their ways and get straight for their own good but, failing that, we don't want pushy homos publically striving to jam their sinful life style down our throats or in our school classrooms; which they do. And, yeah, some of us get a bit angry about that; is it a sin to be angry at deliberate sin?

  2. #82
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    Being gay is rarely a choice made easily. My opinion is the vast majority are born into it. Most of us have known people who exhibited the tendency to be gay at at a very early age. Well before they understood anything concerning sex. There are very few that become gay due to their upbringing.
    We are wired to like the opposite sex but some people are born with crossed wires thru no fault of their own.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Wolfe you think clearly ... but not far enough ahead.

    Yes, God made all men ... but he didn't mandate that men live in rebelious opposition to the "Maker's Instruction Manual" or as slaves to our baser impulses. I sin, you sin, we all sin but that's no justification for any of us to waller in the depths of sin and demand others to pat us on the head in loving approval.

    It appears homos have been around since the beginning of time but, so what, it's a sin, a bad practice; how long does it take for a bad practice to become good? I mean, our Maker said it's not a good way to live and he didn't say that to prevent anyone from having fun. Again, we are all sinners by nature but no one is powerless over himself and we don't have to live sinfully.

    Homosexuals are motivated by several factors, none of which change the fact that it's not a healthy way to live. Fact is, it's a personal choice; it's certainly not a DNA mandate as they have claimed. Their choice is a sin against humanity, same as stealing, raging envy, lying about others and murder are sins against humanity. Those people who have a mental propensity to follow that nasty path are no more helpless about what they do than others who have a natural propensity to steal, abuse children, rape women and commit murder.

    Christians do not want to hang or burn homos in the public square.

    They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now. We would like for them to see the error of their ways and get straight for their own good but, failing that, we don't want pushy homos publically striving to jam their sinful life style down our throats or in our school classrooms; which they do. And, yeah, some of us get a bit angry about that; is it a sin to be angry at deliberate sin?
    "They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now." I think you might be a little bit out of touch with reality.

    What Christians or Islamists consider a sin does not make it actually a sin. Which of the 10 commandments does homosexuality violate. Who is actually hurt by homosexuality and what is the harm?

    Tim
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  4. #84
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    Every sin, and all sin, is sin against God. It is rebellion against His will. Sorry, that doesn't fit your world view - you don't believe in Him.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    "They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now." I think you might be a little bit out of touch with reality.

    What Christians or Islamists consider a sin does not make it actually a sin. Which of the 10 commandments does homosexuality violate. Who is actually hurt by homosexuality and what is the harm?

    Tim
    It is interesting that you are appealing to the Ten Commandments as the end all list of what is and isn't a sin. You recently dismissed half of these commandments in one of your previous posts (I think it was the post where you told us you rarely sin--post #34 in this thread).

    The Bible's prescription for sexual activity limits it to the confines of a marriage between a man and woman. Any activity outside of this boundary is "sexual immorality." There are potential adverse consequences of sexual immorality.

    Heterosexual fornication/adultery can result in unwanted pregnancy, spread of disease, psychological harm, predatory activities and damage to family integrity.

    Homosexual activity can result in all of the preceding issues with the exception of pregnancy. The likelihood of spreading disease is increased tremendously due to the mechanics involved and the fact that male homosexuals are more prone to promiscuity than heterosexual men. There also seems to be more mental health problems among gay people that are not associated with how society views them. The long-term, monogamous gay relationship is rare.

    It is difficult to find unbiased data on homosexual lifestyles today. As a society we have accepted the practice and now are reluctant (or forbidden) to criticize it. But the harmful aspects are still there and are not going away.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 01-24-2020 at 09:23 AM.

  6. #86
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    Another good post Ickisrulz!!!

    What bothers me about the issue is that society is accepting homosexuality as "normal" when clearly it is not. It is not our place to judge them as people but we can judge the lifestyle....and to me it is inappropriate.

    People are born flawed in other ways...psychotic, autistic, bipolar, mentally handicapped, physically handicapped, etc etc...it does not make them normal. People born this way cannot will themselves out of their condition. A homosexual has a choice...I do not buy into the argument they are born this way and have no choice. If they choose to find sexual fulfillment in a sinful relationship, they are not Christians IMHO. They are certainly not fit for leadership roles in a Christian church or to serve as role models. They are free to live unmolested as human beings as they choose. They should not be barred from attending church as we are all sinners.

    But I can be very judgmental. I would not attend a church where the pastor was committing adultery, watching pornography, stealing from others, etc either. BTW, I know that every sin, great or small, it a sin in God's eyes but man (at least this one) is not wired that way.
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  7. #87
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    Society is undergoing cultural evolution with the result that churches are becoming more and more secularized. Churches and schools promote this change. State, local, and federal government continue to endorse the new ethics on gender issues. It's here to stay and will get worse. Criticize it and lose your government job.

  8. #88
    Boolit Master
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    Men think humanity varies vastly in personalities and tastes. That's true but only within a narrow range, we are all much more alike than we are different. We all want "love", we all want acceptance by the people we care about, especially our family and peers, and especially so when we're young. For a variety of reasons there is a certain percentage of people who are denied what we all seek and need. A certain percentage of them rebel and shake their fists in the face of those who disappoint them. I believe homos come from that group of hurts. Many are angry, many have been emotionally beaten down, but I know they aren't "born that way". Few are stupid or weak, none are helpless in how they live. No matter what some stupid college professor says, no one is compelled to live that way, it's just the way they have found emotional affirmation - or attention.

    With help from family, friends and the Holy Spirit, homos can grow out of that emotional trap but first they must come to the realization that the way they live is harmful, both to them and their partners, and want out. Get that one folks, they have to WANT OUT! Most do not truly want to stop so they don't. (It's much like quitting cigarettes, addicted people simply can't stop as long as they'd rather smoke!)

    Our touchy-feely efforts to make others comfortable in their sinful lifestyles, be it sex or smoking or prostitution or drugs, etc., is giving them deadly assistance to continue on a path to hell. That lofty but shallow minded effort may make us feel good about ourselves but it's not love for them.

  9. #89
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    Who would willing choose a homosexual lifestyle, even today if they weren’t biologically driven to do so? It wasn’t all that long ago that admitting to be a homosexual could cost you your job, a security clearance and indeed in some places your very life. Who would flippantly ‘choose’ such a thing given all the negative consequences? And yet throughout history many people have.

    Asserting that being gay is simply a behavioral choice requires ignoring a lot of historical data.
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  10. #90
    Boolit Man
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    Jesus said "you shall love the lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. this is the great and first commandment. and a second is like it. you shall love your neighbor as yourself. on these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets. "matthew chapter 22 verses 37-40. god is the one who is hurt because he is the judge who will cast them into outer darkness. he wants all men to be saved but because of their darkened mind all cannot be saved. broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the pathway to life. the mind of man cannot comprehend the mind of god, so are we a believer of how god said we should live and worship or are we that person who does not believe god and will fall into judgement?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkins45 View Post
    Who would willing choose a homosexual lifestyle, even today if they weren’t biologically driven to do so? It wasn’t all that long ago that admitting to be a homosexual could cost you your job, a security clearance and indeed in some places your very life. Who would flippantly ‘choose’ such a thing given all the negative consequences? And yet throughout history many people have.

    Asserting that being gay is simply a behavioral choice requires ignoring a lot of historical data.
    While I agree with the idea that biology is a major component in homosexuality (see my previous posts in this thread), I have to point out this is not always the case. Humans are incredibly complex. Some people are pressured into homosexual behavior, some "experiment" and some choose it when it becomes the only option (e.g., prison sex).

  12. #92
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    Well, this has developed into a rather interesting discussion, with many worthwhile comments, insights and observations that have been typical of all the views on this subject. However, I have my own beliefs, rightly or wrongly, about homosexuality. I can accept the possibility that some people are genetically pre-disposed toward homosexuality. But God didn't put us here to be "perfect." Each of us is born with certain personality pre-dispositions that bend us toward sins of all types and degrees. So whether or not anyone is born with a pre-disposition toward homosexuality seems rather moot and irrelevant.

    God gave us the finest set of instructions and advice that we could possibly ever have. But with our near universal pre-disposition towards following our impulses, temptations and appetites, we typically forsake those directions and "figure it out" using our own feeble "thinking" processes, which all too often, means twisting the Bible's directions to fit our wills, rather than visa versa. It's just what we habitually do, and I doubt there'll be any really serious disagreement with that. The hard part is discerning when we're doing that, and correcting our approach to fit more appropriately our perspective when we consider an issue of sin and other matters so plentiful in the Bible. That's the problem. But what's the "fix" for that?

    It can only lie in our willingness to REALLY seek the TRUE meaning of the words of the Bible, and that's not something that many of us do naturally. We typically have to catch ourselves, and then slow down and re-fix our eyes on what's REAL, and not what we WANT to think, and almost always we have to change our perspective from one emphasizing our own wills and opinions and thoughts, to one that is truly directed at discerning God's will rather than our own. And sports fans, that isn't easy and doesn't come "naturally" to us! But it IS doable, if we'll just commit to it.

    I have found, after much consideration, that the two most truly relevant and crucial things any professing Christian can do, is to first trust, and also obey. If we do that, understanding will follow - maybe not on the schedule we want, but if we're diligent and honest and humble enough to receive it, it WILL come.

    It's my belief that homosexuals use all manner of excuses and "explanations" to JUSTIFY their behavior, deny that it's detrimental or a sin, and they are VERY actively trying to promote these ideas in the PC culture. But PC culture is pretty much totally anti-Christian, and seems primarily directed at overcoming anything righteous or traditional. It simply seems to seek to supplant traditional values and views with those of the more "modern" secular progressive school of thought. For myself, I have rejected anything PC and stick with the "old ways." They're proven for millenea, and PC is not.

    Homosexuality is just one of the things that "modern" PC advocates and attempts to promote. If it's true that you can tell a lot about a person or idea by the "friends" it hangs around, then advocacy of homosexuality seems to me to be just another sin that PC culture wants to spread in our nation - and it's doing a pretty darn good job of it. We Christians, in response, seem to tend to tire of the debate, and leave the field to those who will fight to the death to promote their wanton ways and falsehoods.

    But how does a Christian treat sinners of any type, such as homosexuals, for instance? We are, I believe, supposed to love them too, no matter how difficult that is (some of us are so disgusted by what they do that it is particularly difficult for us), for God loves us ALL, irrespective of our status with respect to Him at a given moment in time. And I believe that's how we ought to deal with homosexuals. If we can't bring ourselves to be confident enough to do that, then we ought to just leave them be, and go about something more constructive and pleasing to God, like doing something good for someone we feel needs the help. Let God do the judging of the people. But when we HAVE to make a discerning evaluation of things like homosexuality, let us do it the way Christ would deal with it. He stands at the doorway of their hearts until their last breaths. He abandons no one. And He loves us all, but all must face the Judgment when that last breath is gone, and we pass to the next world.

    I believe the PRACTICE of homosexuality is a sin and an abomination. But I'm not Christ, and it's really not up to me to Judge those who practice it. My meager earthly understanding is clearly insufficient to do that sort of thing, so ..... I just leave that up to Christ. I have no problem discussing my beliefs about homosexuality with a homosexual, and it doesn't shock or deter me from engaging one in conversation. The most surprising thing about homosexuality is how so many are never recognized as such even by their neighbors and close friends. I know a fork lift driver couple who are admittedly homosexual, but even their close neighbors have no clue about that.

    What needs to be addressed by the church and those who are concerned about the future of the country, is that segment of the deviant community who actively promote it and oftentimes, very disgustingly and mockingly so. They may have rights, but so do the "decent" people who are disgusted by such activities and people.

    That's my view, and I recommend it to nobody else. I just submit it for comment and observation. It's hard to discern God's true will, but we're all obligated to at least try. This is the best I've been able to come up with, at least for now. Frankly, I haven't dug into the Word to investigate the matter very deeply. But I do at least try to pay attention to those who have, and I have found nothing to negate my views, thus far. FWIW?

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Which of the 10 commandments does homosexuality violate. Who is actually hurt by homosexuality and what is the harm?

    Tim
    Sins enumerated within the 10 Commandments are not the only sins extant.

    In answer to your question, a couple of examples of where homosexuality violates His law are found in the following passages;

    Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Leviticus 18:22, 24, 29 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Also look to Romans for more if you are truly interested.

    Those committing the sins are hurt as they have fallen from God's way.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schwartz View Post
    Sins enumerated within the 10 Commandments are not the only sins extant.

    In answer to your question, a couple of examples of where homosexuality violates His law are found in the following passages;

    Leviticus 20:13— If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Leviticus 18:22, 24, 29— Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Also look to Romans for more if you are truly interested.

    Those committing the sins are hurt as they have fallen from God's way.
    So is a Christian violating the tenets of their faith if they don’t put homosexuals to death as the Bible clearly commands? When we are all called to Judgement will we be measured based partly on how many homosexuals we put to death?
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkins45 View Post
    So is a Christian violating the tenets of their faith if they don’t put homosexuals to death as the Bible clearly commands? When we are all called to Judgement will we be measured based partly on how many homosexuals we put to death?
    IF YOU ARE REALLY ASKING (this is from another thread):

    The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

    With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

    This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

    While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    Every sin, and all sin, is sin against God. It is rebellion against His will. Sorry, that doesn't fit your world view - you don't believe in Him.
    I do believe in God. There is but one God, the creator of the Universe. I believe that sin is that which hurts others or God's creation. I was asking what makes homosexuality a sin. The answer that this or that from the bible says so, does not cut it with me. The Bibles are works of Historical Fiction.

    Tim
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    It is interesting that you are appealing to the Ten Commandments as the end all list of what is and isn't a sin. You recently dismissed half of these commandments in one of your previous posts (I think it was the post where you told us you rarely sin--post #34 in this thread).

    The Bible's prescription for sexual activity limits it to the confines of a marriage between a man and woman. Any activity outside of this boundary is "sexual immorality." There are potential adverse consequences of sexual immorality.

    Heterosexual fornication/adultery can result in unwanted pregnancy, spread of disease, psychological harm, predatory activities and damage to family integrity.

    Homosexual activity can result in all of the preceding issues with the exception of pregnancy. The likelihood of spreading disease is increased tremendously due to the mechanics involved and the fact that male homosexuals are more prone to promiscuity than heterosexual men. There also seems to be more mental health problems among gay people that are not associated with how society views them. The long-term, monogamous gay relationship is rare.

    It is difficult to find unbiased data on homosexual lifestyles today. As a society we have accepted the practice and now are reluctant (or forbidden) to criticize it. But the harmful aspects are still there and are not going away.
    I was wrongly being flip about the 10 commandments. Some of what you said about sex outside of marriage is still true but like prohibitions against eating pork. Times and science have change some of that. Homosexually is not a strictly male thing either. Exactly what kind of problems can result from lesbian sex? Again, a lot of what you said is correct. I think the bigger problem is infidelity and promiscuity than homosexuality. So maybe the sin is infidelity and promiscuity not homosexuality.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  18. #98
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Men think humanity varies vastly in personalities and tastes. That's true but only within a narrow range, we are all much more alike than we are different. We all want "love", we all want acceptance by the people we care about, especially our family and peers, and especially so when we're young. For a variety of reasons there is a certain percentage of people who are denied what we all seek and need. A certain percentage of them rebel and shake their fists in the face of those who disappoint them. I believe homos come from that group of hurts. Many are angry, many have been emotionally beaten down, but I know they aren't "born that way". Few are stupid or weak, none are helpless in how they live. No matter what some stupid college professor says, no one is compelled to live that way, it's just the way they have found emotional affirmation - or attention.

    With help from family, friends and the Holy Spirit, homos can grow out of that emotional trap but first they must come to the realization that the way they live is harmful, both to them and their partners, and want out. Get that one folks, they have to WANT OUT! Most do not truly want to stop so they don't. (It's much like quitting cigarettes, addicted people simply can't stop as long as they'd rather smoke!)

    Our touchy-feely efforts to make others comfortable in their sinful lifestyles, be it sex or smoking or prostitution or drugs, etc., is giving them deadly assistance to continue on a path to hell. That lofty but shallow minded effort may make us feel good about ourselves but it's not love for them.
    An how do you know that none of them are born that way. More people than you imagine are born with incomplete or not properly differentiate genitals. How do you know who is born with what predispositions.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schwartz View Post
    Sins enumerated within the 10 Commandments are not the only sins extant.

    In answer to your question, a couple of examples of where homosexuality violates His law are found in the following passages;

    Leviticus 20:13— If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Leviticus 18:22, 24, 29— Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Also look to Romans for more if you are truly interested.

    Those committing the sins are hurt as they have fallen from God's way.
    I was wrong the way I mentioned the 10 commandments. I also don't consider the bible as for all time. The bible also says not to eat pork.

    The bible has wisdom but it also has foolishness.

    I agree that those who sin are hurting themselves and others or more correctly if you are hurting yourself or others you have sinned. Doing something the bible says you should not do is not a sin if no one is hurt. Who am I hurting if I eat pork.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  20. #100
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    Just by way of background. My wife and I don't watch as much TV anymore and a lot of that is because of how loaded it is with homosexuality. I find the over inclusion of homosexual references, actors and actresses off putting. I am sure homosexuals find me somewhat a homophobe. I don't like it but I don't see it as a sin.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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