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Thread: Homosexuality and God

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    question...what makes you think that eunuchs were homosexuals ? they were eunuchs for a particular job, which had nothing to do with sexual behavior .
    As stated in the post, Norman Geisler lists these 10 points that are used by Christians to justify homosexual behavior. Geisler does not agree with them and neither do I.

    Anyway...eunuchs are not homosexual, they are asexual. Isaiah was definitely not referring to homosexuals in chapter 56. Some commentators understand Isaiah to be referring to individuals who have given up the possibility of marriage for the Kingdom of God, rather than to physically castrated men (see Matt 9:11-12).
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 01-14-2020 at 04:38 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    question...what makes you think that eunuchs were homosexuals ? they were eunuchs for a particular job, which had nothing to do with sexual behavior .
    I don't think he is saying he that at all ...I believe what he was doing is listing some or typical pro homosexual apologetics...he wasn't stating his support of those points just listing them as how some view scripture and perform acts of gymnastics to support their position

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

    Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

    dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.
    I look at that highlited in red differently....as stated by Jesus in Matthew 5 (sermon on the mount)

    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


    I would surmise that since homosexuals tend to view their couples as "man and woman", then their thoughts of lust toward another are likewise viewed by God as sin committed in their heart.
    An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life. "Inside me two wolves fight," he told the boy.
    "One is evil - he is anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, lies, false pride, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, generosity, truth and faith. The same fight is inside you - and every other person, too."
    The grandson thought for a minute and asked,"Which wolf will win?"
    The old Cherokee replied, "The one you feed."

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    I look at that highlited in red differently....as stated by Jesus in Matthew 5 (sermon on the mount)

    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


    I would surmise that since homosexuals tend to view their couples as "man and woman", then their thoughts of lust toward another are likewise viewed by God as sin committed in their heart.
    Are you saying anytime a man finds a woman attractive he has committed adultery in his heart? I don't agree with that idea.

    There is a big difference between being attracted to someone and lusting after them. The first cannot be helped and the latter is an active process (behavior).

    Maybe your sanctification is more complete than mine, but I have been attracted to several women during the course of my marriage. However, I never acted on these attractions or plotted a way engage in sexual activity.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Are you saying anytime a man finds a woman attractive he has committed adultery in his heart? I don't agree with that idea.

    There is a big difference between being attracted to someone and lusting after them. The first cannot be helped and the latter is an active process (behavior).

    Maybe your sanctification is more complete than mine, but I have been attracted to several women during the course of my marriage. However, I never acted on these attractions or plotted a way engage in sexual activity.
    No sir, not what I was attempting to say at all. In fact my view aligns with yours 100% regarding a distinct difference between recognizing something or someone possessing attractive qualities and the lusting or coveting of that attractiveness with the intent of converting to a state of possessing same. To an example only, say you were to show me a prized custom rifle with exquisitely figured grain in the stock. I say to you "Wow that's a super gorgeous rifle stock....the finest grain and finishing work I've ever seen!". That is merely admiration for attractiveness...not a sin. However, if i were to see your rifle and have thoughts to form a plan to take it from you...sin of coveting, even if I don't follow through with action.
    Now maybe I'm weird, maybe I look at it wrong, but trust me....my sanctification is quite far from being greater than yours in my estimation. I am certainly a work in progress and sometimes I fear I haven't enough years to achieve a respectable percentage of it.
    You can't begin to imagine how it frustrates me to be incapable of making my thoughts clear with simple typed words...I apologize if my imperfect command of written words has caused me to offend you, I just wanted to share my viewpoint based on my understanding of the Lord's words.
    An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life. "Inside me two wolves fight," he told the boy.
    "One is evil - he is anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, lies, false pride, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, generosity, truth and faith. The same fight is inside you - and every other person, too."
    The grandson thought for a minute and asked,"Which wolf will win?"
    The old Cherokee replied, "The one you feed."

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    No sir, not what I was attempting to say at all. In fact my view aligns with yours 100% regarding a distinct difference between recognizing something or someone possessing attractive qualities and the lusting or coveting of that attractiveness with the intent of converting to a state of possessing same. To an example only, say you were to show me a prized custom rifle with exquisitely figured grain in the stock. I say to you "Wow that's a super gorgeous rifle stock....the finest grain and finishing work I've ever seen!". That is merely admiration for attractiveness...not a sin. However, if i were to see your rifle and have thoughts to form a plan to take it from you...sin of coveting, even if I don't follow through with action.
    Now maybe I'm weird, maybe I look at it wrong, but trust me....my sanctification is quite far from being greater than yours in my estimation. I am certainly a work in progress and sometimes I fear I haven't enough years to achieve a respectable percentage of it.
    You can't begin to imagine how it frustrates me to be incapable of making my thoughts clear with simple typed words...I apologize if my imperfect command of written words has caused me to offend you, I just wanted to share my viewpoint based on my understanding of the Lord's words.
    Haha great analogy

    Actually works super well for this crowd. Where one person would look at the rifle and appreciate it and be glad you had such a rifle.... someone else would desire it for themselves and envy, covet or lust after it...which are all clearly sinful responses.

    The same standards apply to all when it comes to coveting your neighbors wife as it does to covet your neighbors husband.

    But good analogy I'll use that one

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  7. #27
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    No sir, not what I was attempting to say at all. In fact my view aligns with yours 100% regarding a distinct difference between recognizing something or someone possessing attractive qualities and the lusting or coveting of that attractiveness with the intent of converting to a state of possessing same. To an example only, say you were to show me a prized custom rifle with exquisitely figured grain in the stock. I say to you "Wow that's a super gorgeous rifle stock....the finest grain and finishing work I've ever seen!". That is merely admiration for attractiveness...not a sin. However, if i were to see your rifle and have thoughts to form a plan to take it from you...sin of coveting, even if I don't follow through with action.
    Now maybe I'm weird, maybe I look at it wrong, but trust me....my sanctification is quite far from being greater than yours in my estimation. I am certainly a work in progress and sometimes I fear I haven't enough years to achieve a respectable percentage of it.
    You can't begin to imagine how it frustrates me to be incapable of making my thoughts clear with simple typed words...I apologize if my imperfect command of written words has caused me to offend you, I just wanted to share my viewpoint based on my understanding of the Lord's words.
    I think I understand what you meant. I wasn't offended by what you had written.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy Wild Bill 7's Avatar
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    Leviticus 18:22. Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. My opinion is that when Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead the religious part of the old law was put away. You can be saved by the blood of Christ instead of animal sacrifice. All other laws are still in effect. If you do not believe in Jesus then you set your own laws according to how far your perversion goes. Jesus said I am the way,the Truth and the life. No one comes to the Father EXCEPT through Me. John 14:6. We have our own free will that is where you go the straight and narrow or highway to hell. Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both have done what is detestable. They must be put to death and their blood will be on their own heads. To me the devil is working overtime to claim as many souls as possible because he knows he is doomed and wants as many there with him. The church's that snub their noses at the word of God will answer for their deeds at judgement day. Now this rant is what I think and I will probably get some flack for my opinion but that's ok because I have to answer for my deeds at judgement day also.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Why ask this question?

    I’m serious.
    I currently attend an E-free church, but I am looking at exploring other denominations.

    If my understanding of homosexuality being a sin is correct, I would not trust a church that accepts sin as normal, and to be accommodated, to help me in my faith journey. I will go elsewhere.

    Many here have a far greater knowledge of what is in Bible, thus the request in my first post. My internet search to find supporting evidence wrt to acceptance of homosexuality was fruitless....but I am not good at internet searches.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Couple of issues here. Don, sin is normal - it is universal and if defined as 'falling short of the glory of God' it is my life. As has already been so elegantly been said in this thread the Holy God cannot ignore my condition of sin. That is why Christ died for me and you, because without His sacrifice we have no hope of approaching this.

    Our job is to avoid the obvious sins that we recognize to try to become as holy as we can in this fallen world and in these fallen bodies. If you want to know what you need to work on just ask God and he will tell you! It will never be enough, Christ is our only hope.

    The issue of the Church (the local one, that is) is to try to maintain as close to orthodoxy as possible. John tells us that one who continues in sin was never saved, they lied to themselves and others. Jesus essentially said this as well when he talked of the end times. Thus as leaders in the Church we should never approve of one who continues in sin or defends his decision to remain in sin, no matter what the sin. Gossip and gluttony are the generally sanctified sins in the Evangelical Church - watch out for them. Homosexuality or adultery are no worse or different in God's eyes than gossip and gluttony. We (LOML and I) refused to return to a Church in part because all three of the women on the stage leading the worship singing were morbidly obese. (morbidly obese is a medical term used in that way) This is a Church which approved of a sin by having them there.

    Obviously, in light of the above, having a pastor who is insistent on his 'right' to sin is not to be allowed. The same would or should be true of anyone in a leadership position in the Church.

    Let me throw another verse into the mix - and it is repeated three times in Scripture "God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble". He showed me that it means that He opposes me when I am proud (insisting on my way) and gives me grace when I am humble (in submission to Him). I am still a sinner, still wanting my own way, and thus at times opposed by God himself! No wonder I fail!

    In short, the issue is not homosexuality, or sexuality in general, it is, and always has been, sin.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    I look at that highlited in red differently....as stated by Jesus in Matthew 5 (sermon on the mount)

    27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

    28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    Looking at and admiring is not evil, as such, nor is it automatically "lust" and God does indeed examine men's heart. If a man sees and admires an attractive woman it's harmless; if he sees and LUSTS for her body THEN it is, spiritually and for him, the same as adultery but even then it is NOT the same as if he has accomplished his lust. Adultery demands a deliberate act by both parties and that accomplishment is much worse in God's eyes than a fleeting thought. Everyone knew adultery is wrong, Jesus spoke here to explain that the heart's desire is also wrong.

    I would surmise that since homosexuals tend to view their couples as "man and woman", then their thoughts of lust toward another are likewise viewed by God as sin committed in their heart.
    I think you're overthinking this issue; the way they live is wrong. I doubt God spends much time weighing the relative level between sins from those who have rejected His salvation by faith in and spiritual adherence to our Lord Jesus. Remember, disbelief in Him is the ONLY sin that keeps anyone out of heaven and those who deliberately live sinfully certainly can't honestly claim to "believe" in Jesus and be committed to him. I screw up from time to time but the thought of committing and living in delibert sin scares the h3ll out of me!

    On the other hand, fully meeting the legal requirements of God's Mosaic Law without being spiritually born again can make us look good to the world but it gains us nothing before God. ( See Matt 7:21-23, 26-27 )

    Seems a lot of us overlook what the required "new birth" and becoming a "new creature" in Christ means; at least part of what it means is our new creature outlook precludes clinging with desires to continue sinning. Like Paul, none of us are perfect in this life but no new Christian can remain what he was. ( See Romans 7)
    Last edited by 1hole; 01-14-2020 at 10:25 PM.

  12. #32
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    don, it is good that you have these questions and the only thing i can say is that all your questions can be and are answered in the bible; that is why whatever church you attend must be a bible preaching church, there is no other way to god except thru jesus , god's only son. it also takes a lot of sundays hearing god's word preached along with a lot of personal study of it. just this last sunday our teacher warned us that a lot of people miss heaven by about 15 inches meaning that they have head knowledge but it hasn't reached their heart. i sincerely hope this helps in your search of the truth. a danl

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I currently attend an E-free church, but I am looking at exploring other denominations.

    If my understanding of homosexuality being a sin is correct, I would not trust a church that accepts sin as normal, and to be accommodated, to help me in my faith journey. I will go elsewhere.

    Many here have a far greater knowledge of what is in Bible, thus the request in my first post. My internet search to find supporting evidence wrt to acceptance of homosexuality was fruitless....but I am not good at internet searches.
    Thanks Don, good luck with your journey!

    I don’t have an answer to your question, but I could not follow the teachings of a church that allows openly gay clergy. My perspective is perhaps hypocritical, I sin every day and my pastor sins everyday, and everyone I know sins every day, but I have a hangup about that particular sin. Maybe it’s really the normalizing or dismissing of it that troubles me, for example I wouldn’t have a pastor that was unmarried and openly having relations with someone of either sex. It’s not a good way to live, and I already have plenty of bad examples.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    One faction is pandering to a progressive demographic and should no longer be considered truly Christian.

    I don't condemn them. I myself don't consider the Bible the true word of God and I am not Christian.

    I don't see how you can claim to be a Christian religion and ordain homosexual pastors.

    I was married by a Methodist pastor. I told him straight out I would not swear that Jesus was my Lord and Savior as I did not believe that but that I would allow my wife and children to attend his church and sometimes I would accompany them. I am not afraid of the bibles and think children need to be exposed to religion. It is just part of life.

    I imagine that a Methodist Church lead by a Lesbian Pastor might or could be a positive learning situation but I think it is hardly a shining example of Christianity. The hypocrisy is a little much.

    In the previous post the poster said " I sin every day and my pastor sins everyday, and everyone I know sins every day," Really, I don't feel like I have sinned in quite a long time. I discount the first few commandments as not relevant, like the whole Sabbath thing but I have not disrespected my parents, lied, stolen, killed, coveted, or committed adultery (not since I got married again 5 years ago) in a long time. I guess I might sin once a week since I don't go to church but I still treat Sunday as special and I thank God when I can go to the range on Sunday. It is not in the 10 commandments but if I sin on a regular basis it is the sin of pride. I am proud of how good I am. That is a sin in my mind and work to keep it in check. Why is it not in the ten commandments?

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  15. #35
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    Tim, it is. "Put no other God before me" - pride puts me before God and makes an idol of me. That's why I posted that God himself opposes me when I'm proud. That is one of his infinite ways of loving me.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Norman Geisler is considered an authority in the field of Christian ethics. In his book, Christian Ethics, he deals with many of the moral issues we face today. He explains why some Christians think the way they do even though the Bible says differently. He then makes his case for an ethical stance based on sound biblical interpretation.

    Here is what he lists for arguments that proponents of homosexuality use to justify such behavior for Christians (I really have to summarize here):

    1. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, it was selfishness and inhospitality.

    2. Levitical Law (OT) no longer applies. The prohibitions against homosexuality were thrown out along with dietary restrictions.

    3. Barrenness was a curse to Jewish women. The OT emphasized the blessing of having children, so it is not surprising that homosexuality (and its inability to produce children) was frowned upon.

    4. Homosexuality was connected with idolatry. Therefore prohibitions of against homosexuality only applied to activity connected with idol worship.

    5. Paul's condemnations of homosexuality were his private opinions. Since Paul admits he is giving his opinion (not God's command) when it comes to marriage in 1 Cor 7, it must also apply to the discourse in chapter 6.

    6. Paul condemned long hair on men. Most Bible scholars understand this condemnation to be culturally based and not universally applicable. Therefore, there is no reason to see prohibitions on homosexual behavior any differently.

    7. 1 Cor 6:9 speaks against homosexual offenses (offensive homosexual acts). Not every homosexual act is offensive. So Paul is approving of homosexual activity that is not offensive.

    8. Heterosexual activity is unnatural for homosexuals. When Paul condemned "unnatural acts" in Romans 1:26 it did not apply to homosexuals. Homosexual acts are natural for homosexuals.

    9. Isaiah predicted homosexuals in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:3 says eunuchs will be brought into the Kingdom of God. This suggests the acceptance of homosexuals into the kingdom.

    10. David and Jonathan were homosexuals. The Bible says they loved each other, Jonathan stripped in David's presence and they kissed. David's difficulty with women was caused by his homosexuality.

    It is easy to see the mental gymnastics in these arguments. Geisler shows the errors, but I am not going to type them out.
    Replacing Gods law and commandments with one man's opinion which more than likely goes against the Word of God and is untrue should be dismissed out of hand.
    There are always people who will twist God's Word to justify their twisted and sinful actions. I would just let them walk their own destructive path as long as it only involved the sick minded that traveled it. But, they deceive and draw in the innocent and unknowing.
    I would be remiss to say nothing and subject to Gods displeasure.
    Homosexuality is sinful and destructive to all involved.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  17. #37
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    I have mentioned before that my best friend is a Methodist. He was instrumental in guiding me to Christ. Below is an email exchange I recently had with him. I am disturbed by it, but he closes with "more to come" so I will see.

    First my email to him with some personal stuff edited out:
    "I see that the United Methodist Church is on the verge of finalizing their split. I am trying to understand and trust you can help me do that.

    The traditional view is simple to comprehend. LBGT relationships are sins.

    I suspect the "progressive" view is that we should love everyone. Are there any other justifications that are being used to support LBGT behavior by pastors and church leaders? Are these thoughts supported by scripture?

    We are all sinners. That means pastors are sinners as well. But I see a difference with the LBGT issue. That is repentance. I have committed adultery. I knew is was wrong and I have repented. I get the impression that the LBGT'ers do not believe they are committing a sin and there is no repentance...for them it is their "normal".

    The Book of Timothy speaks to holding pastors and church leaders to a higher standard. When sin becomes acceptable and is actively practiced by church leaders something is wrong.

    I have empathy for homosexuals. I can love them as people but I cannot condone the sin.

    Thanks for any light you can shed on this."


    My friends response:

    "Only a brief reply. One I guess you will find unsatisfactory.

    I have been part of the United Methodist group for several years. I am disgusted by the conservative position. It is unfounded and mean-spirited.

    There is nothing in the Bible indicating that homosexuality is sinful. That point of view is one created by people, for whatever reason. It is a mistake to give that point of view much credence.

    Moreover - and more importantly - we are all sinners, saved by Grace, and charged to love one another. The parable about removing the log (sin) from one’s own eye first is meaningful to me. We are instructed (by Christ) to live as best we can and not judge others. I believe it is wrong to exclude people of any stripe who have a genuine interest in being a Christian. Our task is to love one another. There is no ‘ranking’ of sins. No one is better than anyone else - we are all sinners. God will do the judging when the time comes.

    More later. "


    It is astounding. I have found references in the Bible showing homosexuality is a sin....none that find it acceptable. Here, a highly intelligent man has concluded it is not a sin. And if it is a sin, it is no different than any other and we should not judge.
    Don Verna

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  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Another misunderstanding of Scripture. It does not say the we should not judge, it says we need to be careful when we do judge. In fact the Scripture tells me in Timothy that I have a responsibility to come alongside a brother who is in sin the let him know that he is in sin - this is a responsibility to judge a brother.

    The Scripture that most people assume says to not judge in fact assumes judgment - when you do judge … and advises us to be very careful and to examine ourselves and our motives before we act on our judgment.

    Yes, it is amazing how people change Scripture to make it say what they want rather than what God said.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    Another misunderstanding of Scripture. It does not say the we should not judge, it says we need to be careful when we do judge. In fact the Scripture tells me in Timothy that I have a responsibility to come alongside a brother who is in sin the let him know that he is in sin - this is a responsibility to judge a brother.

    The Scripture that most people assume says to not judge in fact assumes judgment - when you do judge … and advises us to be very careful and to examine ourselves and our motives before we act on our judgment.

    Yes, it is amazing how people change Scripture to make it say what they want rather than what God said.
    wayne, you are totaly correct, you said it very well. a danl

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy
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    In my opinion homosexuality is just a temptation just like porn or drugs, acting on anyone of our temptations is when it becomes a sin, I don’t believe you are born that way. My Brother has had a “roommate” for the past 11 years

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