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Thread: Homosexuality and God

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    Homosexuality and God

    The Untied Methodist Church is about to split over the issue of gay pastors and marriages. A post from Ickisrulz on another thread was very helpful to my understanding of the how homosexuality is viewed in the Bible.

    I am curious to understand the other side of the issue. What are the scriptures that support homosexuality in the Bible?

    I know at least three gay men. They are good people and well above average in intelligence. I enjoy their company even though I do not understand or support their lifestyle. They harm no one. One fellow is in his twenties and the son of a couple we have become friends with....but he is in a bad place. He is one of the smartest people I have ever met but is suicidal. Coming from an Evangelical home has not made things easy for him or his parents.

    My way of dealing with this issue is laissez-faire. They are adults and have the right to live as they choose. They are sinners as I am too.

    I have an issue with accepting their sins as equal to mine. I do not accept their lifestyle as "normal". Yet, I would rather have my gay friends at our home with our grandchildren than some of the drunkards, drug users, etc that we also know.

    I have committed adultery...it seems to be regarded just as badly as homosexuality in the Bible. Am I just as "bad"? I am not proud of what I have done and repentant.

    Lastly, and to the point. If homosexuality is a sin, how can a church that believes in the word of God, accept leaders that openly commit sin without repentance? I am not suggesting churches should exclude homosexuals, as they need God as much as all of us do, but I cannot wrap my head around how they can serve as role models and teachers.

    So please, if the Bible finds homosexuality acceptable, share those thoughts. If you do not wish to do so publicly, PM me.

    Thank you.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #2
    There is alot here, far more than we can likely cover here. However, the issue of sin and gradients of sin is purely man-made. Let me explain.

    In heaven, the most powerful terrifying and awe inspiring creatures ever created surround the throne of God. Evidence in the Bible shows nearly every time a human sees an angel - terror fear and awe to worship is automatic...so much so that the angels have to stop the humans from worshipping. These beings surrounding the throne are magnitudes or order greater, more powerful and even more terrifying. They spend all day for eternity saying "Holy, Holy, Holy".... they aren't robots...they aren't mindless. The only response they can utter in the presence of God is to proclaim His Holiness....

    God is so Holy, so magnificent, so righteous that sin that we would shrug off is eternal cosmic treason to Him. Sin...on a nutshell is our declaration of our autonomy from God and our assuming the throne of our own lives. This can and has taken a million forms throughout time...but any)all of it is what God calls sin. Sin of any sort brings immediate punishment from a God so infinitely Holy and Just...but He has grace...and patience...which is why any of us have breath in our lungs. He would be completely just to wipe off the face of the Earth everyone for our rebellion against Him. This is the God of the Bible. He is Love but He is also so much more...He describes Himself as so much more...Just, Holy, Righteous. It is our low view of God that gives us the strange games of comparing sins and grading them on our own standard of severity. If we don't see God as white hot Holiness and pure justified wrathful anger against sin against Him...then we will repeat what the devil told our ancestors"did God say this..." "You shall not surely die..."

    Homosexuality, adultery, lying, theft, murder, greed, ingratitude and everyone of the millions of other forms of blasphemy our hearts cling to in our own assertion of autonomy is deadly rebellion against our Creator. Homosexuality says 'you can't tell me who I can and can't marry, love or sleep with' ...it isn't primarily about the physics but the heart posture that says "God you aren't God, I am, and I feel this way and I don't care what you say...my feelings are this and I will act on my feelings as if I were God not you..." It is a rebellion against God and His Lordship.

    The people you know may not realize this is their hearts posture. They may be wonderful people...most people are. I have no doubt they display aspects of love and graciousness and sacrificial kindness in ways many of us would and should desire to be more like. This does not nullify their ascention to the throne of their own lives...and this applies to us all. No matter how good you are, all of us have sinned...and claimed what is rightfully God's. This is why we find such good news in Jesus. Without Jesus, we would be standing in full weight of God's Holy wrath...His words not mine. We would all perish...His words not mine. Jesus is our only hope to be saved not from hell...but from God's wrath. We are saved not from the devil....but saved from God's wrath..His words not mine. Jesus is such sweet news because we are in such a damnable place without Him.

    Our low view of God...our low view of our sin...makes us see and believe in a god that does not exist in the Bible. It allows us to justify ourselves and play comparison games. God is not such a low puny god as we have often assumed and as our culture would believe. God is love, but He also drowned every person on the face of the planet that wasn't in a boat He put them in because of sin. He is also coming again, with a sword and tattoo on his thigh with vengeance...it's not a place I want to be standing to say "I am god of my life" when the God of the Bible comes back to set the world back in its place.

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Sin is Sin. love the person, hate the sin. we don't get to pick and choose. I dont have anything to support the practice based on the bible. one sin is not greater then another except in our eyes. i dont believe people that openly commit sin should be leaders of any church. nothing is kept in the dark for long.

    Titus 1:5-13,15-16 NKJV
    [5] For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you- [6] if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, [8] but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, [9] holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. [10] For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, [11] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. [12] One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." [13] This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, [15] To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. [16] They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

    hope this helps.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    Seems like another thread that will only promote contention and strife with only those opinions that think it's really bad and those who eye it with wonder lust.
    I'll start the popcorn this time!
    Last edited by Hickory; 01-14-2020 at 02:02 PM.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master



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    God loves all his children. We should aspire to no less, regardless of our own personal preferences.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I think perhaps what the OP is asking, can anyone list chapter 'n verse in the NEW testament (old has been full filled) where the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin. I'm sure there are places, but don't think there are many. In the Old Testament there are places, but the Old Testament also says don't eat pork and don't do a host of other things.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KenH View Post
    I think perhaps what the OP is asking, can anyone list chapter 'n verse in the NEW testament (old has been full filled) where the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin. I'm sure there are places, but don't think there are many. In the Old Testament there are places, but the Old Testament also says don't eat pork and don't do a host of other things.
    Romans is a good place to start. It's also important to mention that old testament is not passed away and to be ignored. That's a way of interpreting scripture that is not true. Jesus Himself references the old testament often. As do the apostles. As do the many letters to the new testament church.

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    Last edited by John McCorkle; 01-14-2020 at 11:26 AM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Markopolo View Post
    Sin is Sin. love the person, hate the sin. we don't get to pick and choose. I dont have anything to support the practice based on the bible. one sin is not greater then another except in our eyes. i dont believe people that openly commit sin should be leaders of any church. nothing is kept in the dark for long.
    This is where I am at.

    What is astounding is the "traditional" Methodist church is the one splitting away. Most of the church is in favor of having LBGT pastors and leaders.

    It begs the question...if all pastors are sinners (which is a given), and all sins are equal, what are the attributes/standards to be a pastor?

    I have looked at Timothy and there is direction given there that pastors should be held to a higher standard.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  10. #10
    Boolit Master



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    The translated term "sexual immorality" includes homosexual behavior.

    Just like "no talking in class" includes shouting, singing, beat boxing, rapping, etc.

    The people hearing scripture in those times understood that.
    It had been clearly explained and understood for centuries.

    We don't get to choose how we are born, we do get to choose how we live.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master
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    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    This is where I am at.

    What is astounding is the "traditional" Methodist church is the one splitting away. Most of the church is in favor of having LBGT pastors and leaders.

    It begs the question...if all pastors are sinners (which is a given), and all sins are equal, what are the attributes/standards to be a pastor?

    I have looked at Timothy and there is direction given there that pastors should be held to a higher standard.
    So good questions,

    As I understand it the Methodist Church has repeatedly held votes on this issue through the years and the majority vote went to those who did not agree with ordaining ministers who either were practicing homosexual or who agreed to marry homosexual couples...in accordance with the entirety of Christian doctrine throughout history and as revealed in scripture.

    The minority group violently disagreed and chose to disregard the church's position on this and did as they wanted anyways and continued to fight church efforts. The majority decided to leave as the minority would not.

    The minority position, they hold sincerely, is based on their interpretation of scripture...and hold that disallowing homosexual couples from marrying is sin...and they back their beliefs with some manner of scriptural fervency. The truth however is you cannot hold scripture in the authority of God's word and believe what they believe. To be sure you can believe alot of things by twisting scripture...you've seen this throughout history starting with the serpent in the garden.

    We have to be so so so careful with the handling of scripture and what we proclaim as truth because to come to scripture with a desired outcome instead of reading it for what God says and by the interpretation of scripture used to interpret scripture...by the power of the Holy spirit and by sound doctrine we would all be likewise deceived.

    Pastors are held to a higher standard. Starting with their declaration of God as Lord, their repentance sincerely to God away from their sins, and their observable sanctification from sin as a pattern of life confirmed by elders, leaders and church body.

    The issue again isn't just the mechanics of what they do or don't...what they approve or don't...but where their heart posture is to begin with that leads to any/all of this is what qualifies or disqualifies them as a pastor. Their sins and approval of sin is a downstream outworking of their heart posture. In contrast it is the humble repentance and contrite heart of love for others and the faithful handling of scripture in repentance from sin that would qualify a pastor to be a pastor.

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  13. #13
    Boolit Master


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    Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

    Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

    dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 01-14-2020 at 12:48 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

    Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

    dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.
    Well stated

    There is immense grace and care for those that have same sex attraction and recognize the limitations that places on the ability to act or express that....but the same things apply to those with hetro attraction outside of marriage... lust, fornication and etc...

    My heart aches for those that are told by culture that their identity is in their sexuality instead of Christ...it is the air our culture breathes to claim our autonomy from Lordship of God. I have friends who have same sex attraction and it is immensely difficult in our culture to hold to a decision to remain single and pure. They have what Paul calls the gift of singleness.

    I pray for strength for those brothers and sisters...pray for increased dependency on Christ and grace to forgive those who don't understand their position in Christ.

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  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    The Untied Methodist Church is about to split over the issue of gay pastors and marriages. A post from Ickisrulz on another thread was very helpful to my understanding of the how homosexuality is viewed in the Bible.

    I am curious to understand the other side of the issue. What are the scriptures that support homosexuality in the Bible?

    I know at least three gay men. They are good people and well above average in intelligence. I enjoy their company even though I do not understand or support their lifestyle. They harm no one. One fellow is in his twenties and the son of a couple we have become friends with....but he is in a bad place. He is one of the smartest people I have ever met but is suicidal. Coming from an Evangelical home has not made things easy for him or his parents.

    My way of dealing with this issue is laissez-faire. They are adults and have the right to live as they choose. They are sinners as I am too.

    I have an issue with accepting their sins as equal to mine. I do not accept their lifestyle as "normal". Yet, I would rather have my gay friends at our home with our grandchildren than some of the drunkards, drug users, etc that we also know.

    I have committed adultery...it seems to be regarded just as badly as homosexuality in the Bible. Am I just as "bad"? I am not proud of what I have done and repentant.

    Lastly, and to the point. If homosexuality is a sin, how can a church that believes in the word of God, accept leaders that openly commit sin without repentance? I am not suggesting churches should exclude homosexuals, as they need God as much as all of us do, but I cannot wrap my head around how they can serve as role models and teachers.

    So please, if the Bible finds homosexuality acceptable, share those thoughts. If you do not wish to do so publicly, PM me.

    Thank you.
    i urge one to read 'romans chapter #1' and in verse 26 it reads " for this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." and i'll just add this "Jesus is not valued at all if he is not valued above all"

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

    Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

    dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.
    Agree!!!

    I can understand inerrancy is something like Genesis. The 6 days of Creation may not be 24 hour days. Such inerrancy does not affect the root of our beliefs...God is the Creator....whether is took 144 hours for 14 billion years does not really matter in our understanding of God and His desires for how we should live.

    So far, no one has offered any rationale how homosexuality can be accepted as an alternative lifestyle within the context of the Bible. And certainly not acceptable for a pastor. I cannot find anything on the internet either but my search skills are not the best so that is why I started this thread.
    Don Verna

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  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Why ask this question?

    I’m serious.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Having read the prohibitions in both the Old and New Testaments, I attempt to follow the admonition; "Judge not unrighteously..."
    A large Christian University has recently stated; (paraphrasing) "Declaration of sexual orientation is not grounds for punitive action."

    And I believe this statement by a Church spokesman sums it up nicely.

    " We have talked too much about GENDER, and too little about CHASTITY.
    We do not make a judgement about someone's attraction.
    We don't make any attempt to say why or how that happened...
    what we do say is that we all must be chaste...we go with what the LORD has revealed about chastity."

    Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
    IT IS A FINE AND PLEASANT MADNESS !

  19. #19
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Agree!!!

    I can understand inerrancy is something like Genesis. The 6 days of Creation may not be 24 hour days. Such inerrancy does not affect the root of our beliefs...God is the Creator....whether is took 144 hours for 14 billion years does not really matter in our understanding of God and His desires for how we should live.

    So far, no one has offered any rationale how homosexuality can be accepted as an alternative lifestyle within the context of the Bible. And certainly not acceptable for a pastor. I cannot find anything on the internet either but my search skills are not the best so that is why I started this thread.
    Norman Geisler is considered an authority in the field of Christian ethics. In his book, Christian Ethics, he deals with many of the moral issues we face today. He explains why some Christians think the way they do even though the Bible says differently. He then makes his case for an ethical stance based on sound biblical interpretation.

    Here is what he lists for arguments that proponents of homosexuality use to justify such behavior for Christians (I really have to summarize here):

    1. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, it was selfishness and inhospitality.

    2. Levitical Law (OT) no longer applies. The prohibitions against homosexuality were thrown out along with dietary restrictions.

    3. Barrenness was a curse to Jewish women. The OT emphasized the blessing of having children, so it is not surprising that homosexuality (and its inability to produce children) was frowned upon.

    4. Homosexuality was connected with idolatry. Therefore prohibitions of against homosexuality only applied to activity connected with idol worship.

    5. Paul's condemnations of homosexuality were his private opinions. Since Paul admits he is giving his opinion (not God's command) when it comes to marriage in 1 Cor 7, it must also apply to the discourse in chapter 6.

    6. Paul condemned long hair on men. Most Bible scholars understand this condemnation to be culturally based and not universally applicable. Therefore, there is no reason to see prohibitions on homosexual behavior any differently.

    7. 1 Cor 6:9 speaks against homosexual offenses (offensive homosexual acts). Not every homosexual act is offensive. So Paul is approving of homosexual activity that is not offensive.

    8. Heterosexual activity is unnatural for homosexuals. When Paul condemned "unnatural acts" in Romans 1:26 it did not apply to homosexuals. Homosexual acts are natural for homosexuals.

    9. Isaiah predicted homosexuals in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:3 says eunuchs will be brought into the Kingdom of God. This suggests the acceptance of homosexuals into the kingdom.

    10. David and Jonathan were homosexuals. The Bible says they loved each other, Jonathan stripped in David's presence and they kissed. David's difficulty with women was caused by his homosexuality.

    It is easy to see the mental gymnastics in these arguments. Geisler shows the errors, but I am not going to type them out.

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Norman Geisler is considered an authority in the field of Christian ethics. In his book, Christian Ethics, he deals with many of the moral issues we face today. He explains why some Christians think the way they do even though the Bible says differently. He then makes his case for an ethical stance based on sound biblical interpretation.

    Here is what he lists for arguments that proponents of homosexuality use to justify such behavior for Christians (I really have to summarize here):

    1. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, it was selfishness and inhospitality.

    2. Levitical Law (OT) no longer applies. The prohibitions against homosexuality were thrown out along with dietary restrictions.

    3. Barrenness was a curse to Jewish women. The OT emphasized the blessing of having children, so it is not surprising that homosexuality (and its inability to produce children) was frowned upon.

    4. Homosexuality was connected with idolatry. Therefore prohibitions of against homosexuality only applied to activity connected with idol worship.

    5. Paul's condemnations of homosexuality were his private opinions. Since Paul admits he is giving his opinion (not God's command) when it comes to marriage in 1 Cor 7, it must also apply to the discourse in chapter 6.

    6. Paul condemned long hair on men. Most Bible scholars understand this condemnation to be culturally based and not universally applicable. Therefore, there is no reason to see prohibitions on homosexual behavior any differently.

    7. 1 Cor 6:9 speaks against homosexual offenses (offensive homosexual acts). Not every homosexual act is offensive. So Paul is approving of homosexual activity that is not offensive.

    8. Heterosexual activity is unnatural for homosexuals. When Paul condemned "unnatural acts" in Romans 1:26 it did not apply to homosexuals. Homosexual acts are natural for homosexuals.

    9. Isaiah predicted homosexuals in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:3 says eunuchs will be brought into the Kingdom of God. This suggests the acceptance of homosexuals into the kingdom.

    10. David and Jonathan were homosexuals. The Bible says they loved each other, Jonathan stripped in David's presence and they kissed. David's difficulty with women was caused by his homosexuality.

    It is easy to see the mental gymnastics in these arguments. Geisler shows the errors, but I am not going to type them out.
    question...what makes you think that eunuchs were homosexuals ? they were eunuchs for a particular job, which had nothing to do with sexual behavior .

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