Double Rifle Regulation - Need Some Samples

[vandeusenps]

Hello all,

I recently purchased a Holland & Holland double rifle in .450 Black Powder Express. I've had some success in regulating the rifle with expensive Woodleigh BPE-specific bullets, but in the name of saving some money and not worrying about availability, I'd like to see if I can get some cast bullets to regulate.

After searching the internet for information on this topic, I've found that some people have had success with the RCBS 45-300 gas checked bullet, and also the Lyman 457122 hollow point. If there is anyone out there that casts for either of these bullets, and if you are willing to send me 10 to 20 samples, it would be greatly appreciated! I'd like to try these before spending the money to purchase the moulds if I can!

Of course, I would be more than willing to pay for both the bullets and postage. Please send me a PM if you are willing to send a few my way.

[Wayne Smith]

What form do you want them - as cast, lubed, sized and lubed? If sized and lubed what size do you need? Will alloy matter to you - ie how soft? I have the 457122, can cast in ww metal. Can water drop if you want them harder, but I doubt you will.

[vandeusenps]

What form do you want them - as cast, lubed, sized and lubed? If sized and lubed what size do you need? Will alloy matter to you - ie how soft? I have the 457122, can cast in ww metal. Can water drop if you want them harder, but I doubt you will.

Thanks for the response Wayne. As-cast would be fine, and anything 20:1 or harder will work. My rifle has the usual tapered bore that was typical of the period for these rifles. Groove starts at around .462 and tapers to .454 at the muzzle.

[elk hunter]

If you don't have a copy of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" you should get a copy as it has a tremendous amount of information that you will find useful. Most of the 450 BPE rifles used a 365 grain bullet but there are always exceptions. Most BPE doubles will regulate with different weight bullets if the difference is not too drastic but not all will. I have a 500-450 BPE that shoots the "Oregon Trail Bullet Company Laser Cast 350 grain FP .459 45-70" bullet exceptionally well. I've shot the Lyman Gould 330 grain HP some and it is OK but doesn't shoot as good as the Oregon Train bullet. The one thing I don't like about the Oregon Trail bullet is that it is harder than Wood Pecker lips so it doesn't expand but it does kill deer. I would be happy to send you 20 or so of the Oregon Trail bullet if you would like to try them.

It would helpful if you listed your location as there may be someone close by that could help you out.

[vandeusenps]

If you don't have a copy of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" you should get a copy as it has a tremendous amount of information that you will find useful. Most of the 450 BPE rifles used a 365 grain bullet but there are always exceptions. Most BPE doubles will regulate with different weight bullets if the difference is not too drastic but not all will. I have a 500-450 BPE that shoots the "Oregon Trail Bullet Company Laser Cast 350 grain FP .459 45-70" bullet exceptionally well. I've shot the Lyman Gould 330 grain HP some and it is OK but doesn't shoot as good as the Oregon Train bullet. The one thing I don't like about the Oregon Trail bullet is that it is harder than Wood Pecker lips so it doesn't expand but it does kill deer. I would be happy to send you 20 or so of the Oregon Trail bullet if you would like to try them.

It would helpful if you listed your location as there may be someone close by that could help you out.

Thanks elk hunter for your response. I do own a copy of Graeme Wright's book, and most of my nitro for black loads were recommendations listed in the book. So far, I have tried several loads using both black powder and smokeless, with the best loads being the Woodleigh 350 gr. BPE bullet and H4198, and the Hornady 300 gr. 45-70 bullet and 110 gr. of Swiss 3F coming in second.

I would love to try some of your Oregon Trial bullets! I will send you a PM with my address. Thanks so much!

[lar45]

I don't have a 450 BPE, but do have a 470NE double. In mine, I shot mostly 500gn cast with RL-15 and a tuft of dacron, loaded to 2150fps and they shot the same as conventional bullets. I also downloaded some 400gn cast to 1800fps and they shot nearly as well.
Good luck in your adventure.
some pics of the rifle would be great

[vandeusenps]

I don't have a 450 BPE, but do have a 470NE double. In mine, I shot mostly 500gn cast with RL-15 and a tuft of dacron, loaded to 2150fps and they shot the same as conventional bullets. I also downloaded some 400gn cast to 1800fps and they shot nearly as well.
Good luck in your adventure.
some pics of the rifle would be great

Thanks Lar, can I ask what alloy you are using for the full speed loads? Any issues with excessive leading?

[lar45]

I was using WDWW + some tin. For a lube I used both 2500+ and Carnauba Red, and sized to .476" It was a gas checked 500gn mold from Mountain Molds and did not get any leading at all.
The 400gn bullet was from the Lee mold.

[Wayne Smith]

He will have some 457122 coming probably next week.

[vandeusenps]

He will have some 457122 coming probably next week.

Thanks again Wayne!

[kens]

I got several .45 rifle molds, what dia is your 450 Express?
I can cast a few for you,
what weight you looking for?

[vandeusenps]

I got several .45 rifle molds, what dia is your 450 Express?
I can cast a few for you,
what weight you looking for?

Ken, groove in front of the chamber is about .462, but not sure I could get one that big to chamber. I would say anything .460 or less would be ideal. For weight, I’m looking at 300 to 365 grains. Let me know what you have!

[Huvius]

I realize you are asking about cast specifically, but the 350gr Hornady RN is a very good alternative to the Woodleighs for jacketed.

Is your rifle a 450 3-1/4" or Holland's 500/450? No bearing on bullet selection, just wondering, although H&H was a very early adopter of the grease groove style of boolit in their 500/450 and I would think that their chambers will allow a bigger boolit than the traditional paper patch type chambers you run into with these rifles.
Have you measured the mouth of your fired brass? That's sometimes a good diameter for smokeless loads.

I second a look at your rifle!

[vandeusenps]

I realize you are asking about cast specifically, but the 350gr Hornady RN is a very good alternative to the Woodleighs for jacketed.

Is your rifle a 450 3-1/4" or Holland's 500/450? No bearing on bullet selection, just wondering, although H&H was a very early adopter of the grease groove style of boolit in their 500/450 and I would think that their chambers will allow a bigger boolit than the traditional paper patch type chambers you run into with these rifles.
Have you measured the mouth of your fired brass? That's sometimes a good diameter for smokeless loads.

I second a look at your rifle!

Hello Huvius, mine is in the 450 3-1/4” flavor. Thanks for the heads up on the hornady 350’s, I would like to try a box, especially for being about half the price of the woodleighs. Regarding measurement of the case mouth, you mean measure the case mouth, subtract 2x the brass thickness, and that would be a good measurement for cast, correct?

I’ll try to post pics when I return home in a few days!

[vandeusenps]

Here’s a link to the rock island auction I won...will have to suffice until I get home.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...r-double-rifle

[lar45]

Wow, what a great piece!

[kens]

I see the bullet examples you mention are 300-340 weight,
I dont have any molds that light.

[Gray Fox]

Something you might try is the Berrys .45-70 (.458) 350 grain round shoulder flat nose bullet. It's rated to 1,700 fps and much cheaper than the Hornady, although it can't be pushed as fast as the latter. They come in a box of 150, but perhaps if you contacted them they might send you a few to try out if you offer to give them a report of your results. I got a box to try in my rifles which include a browning 1885, a Marlin guide gun, and a Sharps replica. Haven't had a break in the weather lately when I've had the time to get to the range. I'll probably load with 2400 and 5744. GF

[vandeusenps]

Wow, what a great piece!

Thanks for posting!

[vandeusenps]

Something you might try is the Berrys .45-70 (.458) 350 grain round shoulder flat nose bullet. It's rated to 1,700 fps and much cheaper than the Hornady, although it can't be pushed as fast as the latter. They come in a box of 150, but perhaps if you contacted them they might send you a few to try out if you offer to give them a report of your results. I got a box to try in my rifles which include a browning 1885, a Marlin guide gun, and a Sharps replica. Haven't had a break in the weather lately when I've had the time to get to the range. I'll probably load with 2400 and 5744. GF

Thanks for the recommendation GF, I take a look at these!