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Thread: Hunting Load: 45-70 405 gr cast @ 1300 fps --->European smokeless Powder?

  1. #21
    @gumbo333: Yes, I will. Thank you! Problem here is the availability of these powders. Vihtavuori handgun powders habe so less case filling that I am a little bit afraid of the problem you mentionned: Double charging. I am a careful reloader, but who knowes... if it happeny it can be very dangerous...

    @MT Chambers: Know this powder. Thanks! But load data is for much stouter loads... dont know how it performs on less pressure... for "longer" ranges I use my .308 Win... so the 45-70 will be the woods rifle. The purpose that it is designed for.

    @Petander: Thanks for the pic! Would you like to share the beeswax receipe with me?

    @siamese4570: Thank you!

    @35Whelen: Like siamese4570 and koger mentionned and many other reloaders too, Unique seems to be worth a try... I would love to life in the USA with a powder store next to my house... tons of great gun powder, everything available for the rest of my life... a dream!

    @Larry Gibson: Thank you for the very informative post! I will keep that in mind!

    @GregLaROCHE: Great website! I know these guys! Experts!

    @LawrenceA: I'll keep that in mind!

    @koger: In Germany we would say: "Waidmannsheil" I have to check that foto! Nice!

    @ChristopherO: Unique... i've read this name so often... maybe i will dream tonight from Unique. Thank you!

  2. #22
    Boolit Master



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  3. #23
    To all the Unique powder users:

    The 45-70 loaded with a 405 gr WFN bullet, pushed to something around 1300 fps with Unique... how much is the case filling ratio with a 16 gr load for example?

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy
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    Blackforest,
    Very little of the case is filled. In reality, extremely little of the case is filled, so one has to be highly aware NOT to Double Charge the case. My procedure is to manually pour the measured amount of Unique into the prepped case and then place a boolit into the mouth to ensure that no additional powder is accidentally is poured in. All I've read is that Unique is not case position sensitive and doesn't need a filler. Always do your due diligence to be sure, though.

    I use 13 grains of Unique but I don't believe the muzzle velocity is 1,300 fps, more like a 1,000 fps out of my 26" barrel. I need to double check that to be sure, but it is a very light load. Great for water jugs out to 100 yards. This is with a Lee 405 grain bullet, not the 350 grain boolit Koger was writing about. (I agree with a prior poster, if you want a very good mold skip the Lee and purchase better from the start. I use Lee dies and such but the molds don't hold a candle in quality, IMHO)

    I apply the same loading procedure with the 24.5 grains of 2400 powder I use on my hunting loads (1,620 fps) but add the light tuft of dacron before inserting the boolit. Because of the higher fps of these hunting loads I use an Accurate Mold with gas checks. I still get some leading of the barrel from both boolits, Lee and Accurate sized to .460, but 4 or 5 swipes of lightly oiled tight patches pushes it all out.

    Black Power is quite fun, too. I was surprised how little smoke exited from the end of the barrel compared to my 50 caliber muzzleloaders, though. Same amount of powder (70 grains of fffg) but not nearly the extent of the smoke plume, from my small amount of experimenting.
    Enjoy.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy gumbo333's Avatar
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    Black forest, glad you found some Unique. 16 gr of Unique fills a 45/70 case up approximately .45 inch. I think that would be 1.14 centimeter. A double charge of 32 gr of Unique would be slightly compressed using a 405 gr boolit seated to the crimpgroove. A double charge can be easily seen if you look every time after filling with powder. Follow ChristopherO's procedure, put a boolit in the case immediately after you put the powder in, even if you put the boolit in upside down to show you the case has been charged. I always seat the boolit after I charge with powder, nomatter what the charge weight is, always. I then crimp with a Lee FCD. But I have 2 presses sitting side by side. The 2nd press is a cheap Lee 'C' press. Open in the front for easy access for light duty work. Start with good habits, be safe. Your about the start having a world of fun. I think your 405 gr flat point boolit traveling at just 1100 fps would kill animals weighing up to a ton.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    Lovex is sold in the US under a different name. Ballistic Powders may have some data from Vectan. They will have a link to Vectan. Actually, there are a number of powders that are similar or simply rebranded European powders. Alliant may still use or copy under license Nobel powders, Ramshot (Western Powders) had some supply problems after Putin started saber rattling and NATO countries increased their ammunition stocks.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    I have a 1895 CB (26"barrel). While I have no experience with european powders I would suggest ou look for a lighter bullet mold. 400gr at 1300fps is approaching bison killing energy. When I first got the gun I had no idea what I wanted to shoot in it. I started out with two lee molds , 330 and 405 gr. Once the molds were broken it they have workedfine. I also found a Lyman/Ideal 290 gr mold. These all have worked fine with "Trail Boss" powder. Used minimum loads and they are not much more than 22LR recoil. Any load will kill the Roe deer. Boar may take a 330 gr at 1300 fps to put down promptly. California no longer allow me to hunt with cast loads. Some time this year I hope to move to Oregon where I can hunt with cast boolits. Have fin with your new gun!

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy gumbo333's Avatar
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    Looks like Vectan TU3000 would get you right where you want to be, even with a cast boolit, if you have access to it. Nobelsport is in Paris.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master superior's Avatar
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    Get Unique if you can, 2400 if you cant, 4198 if you don’t mind less economy. All 3 are excellent in my JM GG

  10. #30
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    Howdy folks!
    I've been reading you for a while, but I've just registered as I saw this topic.
    I understand your problem of powder, but for me near everything is available, except that US goods are waaaayy more expensive.
    Why don't you use Vectan powders? A0 for plinking, or SP10 for hot loads. I hunt big boars with my 1886 Browning rifle. I shoot a RCBS 45-405 boolit, 420 grains lubed & gascheked, 1-30 tin lead alloy, at around 1500f/s with no leading, perhaps because of the outstanding Ben's red lube.
    I also use swiss black powder, the job is done.

    https://www.yumpu.com/fr/document/re...s-lhs-germany-
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  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy hockeynick39's Avatar
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    The mold I use is Accurate 460-400M. The load I use is 39.2 gr. H322 at 2.550" and it shoots to point of aim at 50 meters. This load is very accurate from my original Winchester 1886 and is very mild.

    Vihtavuori Oy N133, N130, or N120 are very close. You may also have to fluff up a tuft of Dacron (pillow batting), 6mm x 6mm in order to fill up the empty space. I have no issues with using it in this manner. Others will say something about "ringing" the chamber. Most are just scared to try!

    Good luck and stay safe!

  12. #32
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    +1 to what Duck Killer said. 300- 350 grains is plenty in the 45/70. 15.0 Unique and a 300gr cast is a very pleasant load to shoot and it will take deer and boar just fine. Better than heavy 44 magnum pistol loads! The lyman 330 gr Gould hp is my favorite deer bullet, over 23.0 gr 2400 with a 1.0 gr tuft of dacron fiber under the bullet. Fluff the dacron up until it FILLS the space between powder and bullet base. Similar loads of 5744 do not require a filler. In my opinion, 400+ gr bullets are best reserved for buffalo, Moose (Elg) and other LARGE game. Some folks like to use 500 gr on deer, why I have no idea. Heavy recoil, waste of lead. The Gould 330 is THE hunting bullet in the 45/70. Expands well, penetrates like a Nosler partition. Cast it of a moderately soft alloy like 20/1 lead/tin. I use a 95/2.5/2.5 alloy for mine. The 45/70 is a fun shooter and will handle game just fine with BP equivalent loads. Full power loads are not needed for deer/ boar class game. Heavy loads with proper bullets can handle any game on earth, but are not much fun to shoot

  13. #33
    Boolit Bub
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    I've nothing to add on the subject but the Marlin 45-70:s have become somewhat popular for dog handlers in Sweden so you might find some data using VV and Norma powders on a popular swedish reloading/hunting forum called Robsoft.
    English is no problem and if you're lucky you might run into some old fox that speaks german.

  14. #34
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    45-70 is addictive. You will end up with more molds than one.

    470 grain Applegate:



    RCBS 325:



    Mihec 455 HP:



    All these use N130.

    My lube was a long time ago messy experiment,you will find better recipes here on board.

  15. #35
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    GONRA sez -listen to ChristopherO!!!
    Once ya'll powder charge a "Reduced Charge Case" - do SOMETHING to reflect that fact that POWDER CHARGE IS ALREADY IN THE CASE!
    [In small cases (5.7x28mm FN subsonic, etc.) drop a nail into charged case.]

    Embarrassing Fact is - all over the world, WE'RE ALL IN A BIG HURRY!!
    RELOADING AMMO JUST IS NOT A "NICE FIT" in Today Modern Society / World!!!
    Gotta face the facts guys / gals!
    >>>> AVOID FAMILY DISTRACTIONS! BE CAREFUL! <<<<
    Last edited by GONRA; 01-30-2020 at 06:54 PM.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackforest View Post

    I'm searching for a european powder that is good available for me, , that is not very position sensitive, that ignites good and burnes relativly clean even with low pressure. with that I can achieve my 1300 fps with a 405 gr cast bullet. And that filles my case adequate.



    Thank you!
    Stefan
    Published Vihtavuori loads are very good if you can tolerate 1500 fps. I don't see a reason to go for reduced,fast pistol powder loads with 45-70 hunting loads. Don't know why the thread is going that way,my chrono readings in the above post are m/s, not fps.

    I used to load subsonic for a suppressed 45-70 with VV 3N37.


  17. #37
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    Lyman 4th edition cast bullet handbook lists 42gr of VV N135 with the Lyman #457193 405gr in #2 alloy at 2.550" OAL as a starting load in the trapdoor section for a projected velocity of 1272 (they used a universal receiver and 24" barrel). 46.5gr max (for an 1873 Springfield trapdoor rifle) at 1510 projected. You will probably get less in your Marlin. You should not have any problems with load density with this slower burning powder. Best guess from the data I can mine with Google is about 75% load density @ 42gr.
    You may have access to VARGET due to it's popularity in the .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) and .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO). This is listed starting at 42.0gr at 1258fps in a trapdoor springfield to a max of 55.0 gr at 1772fps for 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlin's ONLY. All with the same 405gr Lyman bullet although they list #2 alloy for the trapdoor loads and 20-1 alloy for the Marlin rifle loads.
    Pick either and start at min and work your way up until you hit your target velocity.

  18. #38
    Boolit Mold Bouteselle's Avatar
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    Just killed this boar. Not very heavy (180lbs), but very very tough, I've rarely seen such a shield.
    Thirty yards shot, right in the heart, he dropped in his track.
    I used my load, RCBS 45-405, 1/30 tin lead, 425 grains lubed & gas-checked, Ben's red lube, near 1500fps.
    The bullit only entered 7 or 8 inches, and mushroomed on the side. I wonder whether I should make my alloy a little harder...

    Here in my south, stalking is not practiced; boars are shot only in battues, with dogs, as they're racing... It ain't always easy to shoot'em properly.
    Next time I feel like trying RCBS 45-500 with black powder, shot mountain goat with it a long time ago.

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  19. #39
    Boolit Master



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    NOW I call that expansion!!!
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  20. #40
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    Other side!


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check