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Thread: Hunting Load: 45-70 405 gr cast @ 1300 fps --->European smokeless Powder?

  1. #1

    Hunting Load: 45-70 405 gr cast @ 1300 fps --->European smokeless Powder?

    Hey to everybody,

    my name is Stefan and I am from Blackforest, Germany.
    I'm new to bullet casting and plan to buy a stainless Marlin Levergun in 45-70 for hunting with cast boolits.

    Why hunting with cast boolits? Because I want to!
    Here in Europe or in Germany it's not as easy as in the USA to get all the reloading stuff you need. Sometimes you have to wait weeks or months until the next ship brings the bullets you want. With powder it is extremly different. Sometimes you get what you need, other times you have to wait half a year for your powder. An even then, you dont know if it really comes with the next container.

    Because of this I decided to cast my own bullets and load them with european smokeless powder. That makes me independent in some way.
    My game are roe deer (20 to 40 pounds) and wildboar (20 to 200 pounds).
    My bullet of choice will be something like the Accurate Mold 46-405V Click image for larger version. 

Name:	46-405V.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	15.2 KB 
ID:	254692
    I've read a lot of boolit performance with big meplat bullets in the internet and believe, that this boolit should work quite fine, without much meat damage. I hunt for meat!

    I did a lot of research on wound ballistics and believe, that a 405 gr WFN boolit driven a something around 1300 fps should work for me. My shooting distances are from 30 to 130 yards, most of the time around 70 yards. I'am a woods hunter.

    Now the problems:
    Here in Germany we have some bullet casting community, but compared to the tradition and experiences in the USA we are only one little star on the night sky. So for us mold availability is difficult, bullet lube availabillity is difficult, powder availabillity is difficult and so on.
    For this reason I have to work with what we have here.

    I have a german custom mold maker who surley can build a copy of the Accurate mold for me. That is cheaper that shipping it from USA, I believe.
    Bullet lube for my purpose? I've read the whole bullet lube receipes here on the forum (and on other sites) and want to give 60% beeswax and 40 % Vaseline a try. That should work for my porpose. I like receipes with only a few ingredients available everywhere. Better idea?

    Now to my question: What powder would you recommend?
    I read the Lyman cast bullet Handbook No. 4 and countless of posts here on the forum and on other sites. There are great load recommendations. But all of them (the Lyman book included) have one big problem for me (not for you Amerikans! I envy you in many ways!). There are in 99% only US powders mentioned. I like your powders! Really! I loaded in .308 Win a 110 gr Barnes TSX with Hodgdon H322 and really liked that load!
    But as mentionned, it is difficult to buy these powders here and I'm honest, I dont want to wait half a year for a new can of powder that comes maybe(!) with the next ship.

    I don't need a bear stopping load. For me a 80% meplat bullet (like the Accurate one) driven at 1200 or 1300 fps in enough! Wound channel ist good, penetration should be the most in this velocity range (I dont need it for my "little" game, I know) and the load ist comfortable to shoot.
    With most powders combinded with a mild load like this I get very little case filling.
    I want to avoid this, because of inconsistensy and the other problems that come with it. Gas pressure will be low, so I will have to live with some unburnt powder, but that is not the main problem for me. I don't like Fillers, because the cause problems!

    Has somebody experiences with european Powders for this load combination?
    We have a similar powder to TrailBoss, it is calle Tin Star from Vihtavuori. But there is no load data available for 45-70, only for revolver cartridges.

    I found some load data for the Accurate bullet mentionned in another Forum: Load was 24.0 grs. 2400, Wolf Large Rifle Primer, Accurate 460405V sized .460" with Glen's Black Moly Bullet Lube. Bore was super clean when I finished shooting today. Fired out of my Siamese 98' Mauser. https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...87/#post-43067
    Do you know the case filling rate of this combination?

    I'm searching for a european powder that is good available for me, , that is not very position sensitive, that ignites good and burnes relativly clean even with low pressure. with that I can achieve my 1300 fps with a 405 gr cast bullet. And that filles my case adequate.

    Do you have some recommendations for me?
    Please tell me the US powders, too. I'm interested in that!

    Thank you!
    Stefan

  2. #2
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    I would try working with tin star. Can you contact the manufacturer to see if they have load data? The other possibility is they you could probably achieve desired ballistics with black powder, which I believe is more widely available in Europe.
    "If you see me running something has gone poorly, and you should probably run too." - any beekeeper

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
    I would try working with tin star. Can you contact the manufacturer to see if they have load data? The other possibility is they you could probably achieve desired ballistics with black powder, which I believe is more widely available in Europe.
    Thank you for the advice with the manufacturer. But they refere to the actual published data, and there is no load data...because cast bullet shooting is not very commen here in Europe. So i'm sure, they didn't event tested it...

    Blackpowder is no option for me, because of cleaning procedure and smoke. I have to make follow up shots, if two or more game is in front of me.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Gamsek's Avatar
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    If you can find data for 45-70 with 5744 (one of the most versatile powders for cast bullets and reduced loads) buy Lovex D060.

    I had same problems, was using 5744 for years in my 7mmRM and now 7x64 with RCBS cast bullet, then finding that 5744 powder become impossible here in Europe. Me and two other casters switched to D060, we get same results. As you see my old 5744 was made by Lovex. Same characteristics. Lovex doesn’t publish data for reduced loads, but we are getting very similar results as with 5744 using that rule (down)

    Good luck. And you have one premium EU mould manufacturer which has moulds for your 45-70 too. (MP Molds). They ship worldwide.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy Gamsek's Avatar
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    https://explosia.cz/app/uploads/2019...ng_EN_2019.pdf

    And a mould without overseas shipping costs and no custom expenses (that’s why I use them)

    https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-...-multi-choice/

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy gumbo333's Avatar
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    Well I'll take a stab at this Black forest. Vihtavouri in there online load data has 3 more powders in addition to Tin Star that is comparable in the 45/70. That data is mostly for jacketed bullets. Many say you can use beginning load data for jacketed to use with cast boolits. Check it out. Next Shooters World powders here in USA is Lovex powders over there. Made by Explosia. They show data for 2 powders, lead, 378 gr. and 500 gr. That would give you a start. Alhso Norma powder shows 3 powders for the 45/70 but all for jacketed bullets. But again a start. This info I have is all available on-line. RWS had powder in the past, might check them out. Lastly, over on Marlin Owners forum they have a 45/70 category. Lots and lots of info and knowledgeable friendly guys there. Lots of 45/70 casters and reloaders 'down under' , they have a difficult time getting componets too. Check that out also. You've been bit, no turning back now. Have fun, be safe, I'm sure there is info for what you want if you can figure out how to find it.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy Gamsek's Avatar
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    https://shootersworldpowder.com/buffalo-rifle/

    D060 in another package, made by Lovex, just with different name.

  8. #8
    @Gamsek: Thank you for the advice with the Lovex D060 = Accurate 5744!!! The last one is one of the few favourite powders mentioned in the Lyman cast bullet handbook. That seems to be worth a try!
    Many many thanks for the article of handloadersmagazine! This method is new to me, but for estimating a good starting point i will give it a try! Well Quickload isn't very precise with cases like 45-70, so a good rule like this in combination with a chrono is pretty cool!

    MP molds... sure! You are right!

    Buffalo Rifle powder (D060) sounds almost perfect for my needs, not?

    @gumbo333: Many thanks for your advice! Don't you see the problem with the "normal" powders, not especially made for straight walled big bores, that the case filling is so minimal?
    I would load without fillers or paper pads or what they are called...

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy gumbo333's Avatar
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    Thanks, there is also some low level data for mouse fart loads that does get to 1100 fps using handgun and shotgun powders like unique, red dot, green dot, tite group, tite wad and several Vihtavouri powders. Not sure what you have available there. Interesting reading at gmdr.com/lever/ lowveldata. But need to be especially careful doing this as double charging is a real possibility. I've had a lot of fun and success with blue dot, red dot and unique with a 405 gr boolit. I'm guessing you will soon be having much fun too.
    Last edited by gumbo333; 01-12-2020 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Typo

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    There's lots of data around for Vihtavouri 130 from Finland, I believe they have a data manual on the computer, good luck, the 45/70 is a deadly cal. for what you need. The only reason to go to any heavier loads is if you need to flatten trajectory and shoot game at longer ranges.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Welcome to the great hobby!

    Vihtavuori N130 and N135 have worked for me with 325-475 grains. I load cast 1500 -1900 fps.

    I just found a 2004 test target pic today,50 meters with a Marlin 1895 45-70. I only had my first 405 grain mold then and lube was beeswax based homemade concoction.

    .


    You have Brownells in Germany,lots of casting stuff there. Titan Reloading ships worlwide,so do NOE,Accurate,Mihec...I get molds from Ebay more often than I should...

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Blackforest: Always happy to help out a fellow 45-70 shooter. I also have a siamese 4570. My old lyman manual lists loads for both 2400 and unique. 16.5 grains of unique shows 1260 fps (that's max load). 22.5 grains of 2400 gives 1240 fps. Max load for 2400 is 28.5 grains. Hope this helps.
    Siamese4570

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    If you can get your hands on Unique...you can get many more loads per pound than any other powder and get to the desired velocity. A 16 grain load will get you very near 1300 fps and you can get 437 loads per pound of powder....very easy on the shoulder and firearm as well, and no need for filler.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    X2 on 35 Whelens post.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackforest View Post
    Hey to everybody,

    my name is Stefan and I am from Blackforest, Germany.
    I'm new to bullet casting and plan to buy a stainless Marlin Levergun in 45-70 for hunting with cast boolits.

    Why hunting with cast boolits? Because I want to!
    Here in Europe or in Germany it's not as easy as in the USA to get all the reloading stuff you need. Sometimes you have to wait weeks or months until the next ship brings the bullets you want. With powder it is extremly different. Sometimes you get what you need, other times you have to wait half a year for your powder. An even then, you dont know if it really comes with the next container.

    Because of this I decided to cast my own bullets and load them with european smokeless powder. That makes me independent in some way.
    My game are roe deer (20 to 40 pounds) and wildboar (20 to 200 pounds).
    My bullet of choice will be something like the Accurate Mold 46-405V Click image for larger version. 

Name:	46-405V.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	15.2 KB 
ID:	254692
    I've read a lot of boolit performance with big meplat bullets in the internet and believe, that this boolit should work quite fine, without much meat damage. I hunt for meat!

    I did a lot of research on wound ballistics and believe, that a 405 gr WFN boolit driven a something around 1300 fps should work for me. My shooting distances are from 30 to 130 yards, most of the time around 70 yards. I'am a woods hunter.

    Now the problems:
    Here in Germany we have some bullet casting community, but compared to the tradition and experiences in the USA we are only one little star on the night sky. So for us mold availability is difficult, bullet lube availabillity is difficult, powder availabillity is difficult and so on.
    For this reason I have to work with what we have here.

    I have a german custom mold maker who surley can build a copy of the Accurate mold for me. That is cheaper that shipping it from USA, I believe.
    Bullet lube for my purpose? I've read the whole bullet lube receipes here on the forum (and on other sites) and want to give 60% beeswax and 40 % Vaseline a try. That should work for my porpose. I like receipes with only a few ingredients available everywhere. Better idea?

    Now to my question: What powder would you recommend?
    I read the Lyman cast bullet Handbook No. 4 and countless of posts here on the forum and on other sites. There are great load recommendations. But all of them (the Lyman book included) have one big problem for me (not for you Amerikans! I envy you in many ways!). There are in 99% only US powders mentioned. I like your powders! Really! I loaded in .308 Win a 110 gr Barnes TSX with Hodgdon H322 and really liked that load!
    But as mentionned, it is difficult to buy these powders here and I'm honest, I dont want to wait half a year for a new can of powder that comes maybe(!) with the next ship.

    I don't need a bear stopping load. For me a 80% meplat bullet (like the Accurate one) driven at 1200 or 1300 fps in enough! Wound channel ist good, penetration should be the most in this velocity range (I dont need it for my "little" game, I know) and the load ist comfortable to shoot.
    With most powders combinded with a mild load like this I get very little case filling.
    I want to avoid this, because of inconsistensy and the other problems that come with it. Gas pressure will be low, so I will have to live with some unburnt powder, but that is not the main problem for me. I don't like Fillers, because the cause problems!

    Has somebody experiences with european Powders for this load combination?
    We have a similar powder to TrailBoss, it is calle Tin Star from Vihtavuori. But there is no load data available for 45-70, only for revolver cartridges.

    I found some load data for the Accurate bullet mentionned in another Forum: Load was 24.0 grs. 2400, Wolf Large Rifle Primer, Accurate 460405V sized .460" with Glen's Black Moly Bullet Lube. Bore was super clean when I finished shooting today. Fired out of my Siamese 98' Mauser. https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...87/#post-43067
    Do you know the case filling rate of this combination?

    I'm searching for a european powder that is good available for me, , that is not very position sensitive, that ignites good and burnes relativly clean even with low pressure. with that I can achieve my 1300 fps with a 405 gr cast bullet. And that filles my case adequate.

    Do you have some recommendations for me?
    Please tell me the US powders, too. I'm interested in that!

    Thank you!
    Stefan
    I've done a bit of load development using Tin Star (VV N32C) under 413 gr cast bullets in the 45-70 which included pressure measurement. First of all Tin Star is nothing like "Trail Boss" powder. Tin star has a lot less bulk and does not give 100% load density as can Trail boss. You must be careful as it is a fast burning powder and pressures increase fast in the large 45-70 case. The pressures also rise very fast in the time pressure curve. While I found it gave excellent accuracy in the 45-70 with the 413 gr cast bullet I wouldn't use Tin Star with a 400 - 415 gr cast bullet beyond 1100 fps. I'm sure there are European powders in the burning range of RL7, 3031 and H4895(?) Which are the powders I favor for 1300 - 1400 fps with a 400 - 410 gr cast bullet in the 45-70. However, I use a filler with them. Fillers do not cause problems, they solve them. Problems can be caused by wads which are not fillers.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #16
    Boolit Master



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    I’m an American who has been shooting a .45/70 for over thirty-five years. I now live in France and understand completely what you are talking about. You will probably have to work up a load that suits you with what you have available. Here’s a link to power burn rates. I like Vihtavuori powders, partly because of the reloading tables they have on line, but only for jacketed bullets. Just for reference.
    Consider buying an inexpensive Lee mould or two to start. You may also want to try a heavier boolit like 500gn traveling slower. Sometimes they’re not that expensive from the UK, but hurry before Brexit. If you buy on eBay.com, the shipping should still be less for a couple of moulds, than having a steel or brass one made.
    You need to figure out how hard an alloy you want to use. I’ve bought.45/70 cast boolits on the internet. It may be a way to start.
    Good luck! There’s a lot to be learned and this is one of the best places to start.


    https://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmin..._Feb._2018.pdf

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Petander's Avatar
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    I started with a Lee mold and wouldn't recommend it as the first mold.

    Especially because we now have many reasonably priced,quaranteed good quality mold makers, I just finished casting with a Lee and experienced all the usual little things like pins falling,handles falling, not aligning all the time,bullets sticking...

    It's an old 44 mold that made me hate 44 so I sold my SBH. The mold can/must be fixed.

    Get a good mold from the start and concentrate on other things than repairing a $20 mold. Lee is fine for an experienced caster with some technical abilities and tools.

  18. #18
    Boolit Man
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    Hi mate
    For a mold the Lee's overheat real quick but are dirt cheap comparatively. Miha (MP molds) is on your doorstep and awesome. Do yourself a favor and take a look.

    I am in Australia so we have a similar issue with what powders are available vs the States.
    Just for background I load for a Marlin 1895 as well as an original Trapdoor so do a bit with 45-70.
    The only powder reliably available is ADI and even then it is sketchy.
    However the ADI site does have a powder equivalent chart which can be used to find a potential match between available powder and US loading data.
    I have made good use of it comparing the available powders with Lyman's and other cast load data
    Of course your cannot just dive on but maybe it will be some use in helping find a starting powder and load.
    I would start with Springfield loads and work up keeping in mind the possible need for fillers.
    Remember generally it is harder to blow yourself up with fuller cases of slow powder. But I believe you should check for too much unburnt powder before running another round through.
    Please remember this chart is supplied as an aid not a definitive list.
    Use common sense. Don't damage yourself or the gun and have fun.
    Good luck!
    http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    This year deer hunting, I took a deer here in KY, with a 350gr Lyman/Gould hollow point. The load was 15 grs of Unique pistol powder. It shoots great, and zipped thru both shoulder and the spine in between, and exited. The shot was 70 yds or so, in a original Trapdoor Springfield, made in 1884. I posted here in this section with pics of the exit hole, should be on the first or second page. This should do all you need for your hunting and shooting. I would go with 13grs of Unique behinda 405 gr lead bullet. Do not use any filler.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Unique loads are light effective with no filler. I use those for practice loads, though I am sure they will kill deer just fine. My hunting load is 2400 with a 1/2 grain of dacron filler, just enough to hold the powder in place next to the primer. wonderful loan and excellent accuracy. If you have those available there are many shots per pound.
    Most of all, have a BLAST!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check