Saw an amazing gun/shooter today

[kens]

I apologize to all if my remarks were taken as rude or coarse.
My OP is about subsonic (cast) loads at long range.
High velocity was not included in the OP.
would anyone with more experience than me please duplicate the shooting as in the OP. make a video of it, please.
Here is the shooting task as requested:
No sighters and no spotters allowed at any time nor any range.
Subsonic cast boolit only,
boolit weight not to exceed 160gr
not to exceed 1050fps at muzzle,
only 4 rounds of ammo, no more.
Shoot 1 round , not to exceed 1050fps at muzzle, at 300yd and clang the gong. 1 round=1gong
Crank in 100yd worth of elevation in your sight and take 1 more of the same ammo and hit , 1round=1gong.
No sighter and no spotters allowed.
Crank in another 100yd worth of elevation in your sight and 1 more of same ammo and hit, 1 round=1gong.
no sighters.
Crank your sight back to 100yard zero, put the rifle down.
Again pick up rifle, crank in 500yard worth of elevation and hand the gun to a stranger and give him 1 round of that 1050fps ammo, and the stranger hit, 1 round=1gong.
Please send me the video.
Thanks.
Sorry for any crude remarks.

[waco]

That is indeed impressive shooting. I have no doubt the shooter knows his rifle and load well. Doing this subsonic May have some benefits. Some Boolit styles do not like the transition from super to subsonic. This is a problem I ran into. I had to keep them moving at a pretty fast pace. I’ve seen guys run sub 300blk loads out to 500.
No hard feelings here. I should have worded my response better.
Waco.

[Huvius]

Not doubting your account but in thinking about this, I came up with a couple questions about what you witnessed.
1050fps is probably what a 7gr load of TB would generate but that is way below the recommended starting load from Hodgdon - maybe a bit scary - don't know. Anybody load that much below TB recommendations before?
How long did the bullet flight take in your opinion?
500yds takes about two full seconds at a MV of 1050. Did it seem that long to you?
Obviously, the guy is quite a marksman but just may have been pulling your chain on the load. You know how some folks are...

[kens]

it was a really slow time of flight.
and he had a huge amount of elevation.

[dtknowles]

How big were the gongs? How much range time with this load did the shooter have on previous days? I am assuming this shooting was from a bench or prone. I don't have a 500 yard range but going from 100 to 200 yards with subsonic .22 LR and never missing the gong is not hard. I don't even have to crank in elevation just use the mil-dots. What were the winds like. Can't do it on a windy day. Our gongs are 12" x 8" rectangles, just hold 4 dots over the top of the gong at 200 yards. ping. Yah got 4 moa of windage and 6 moa of elevation, if you can shoot 3 moa groups how can you miss.

I have never shot at a range with 500 yard gongs but I bet they are bigger than 12 x 8.

I remember testing my 22 for drop at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards for small bore hunters pistol silhouette comps. I had the number of clicks of elevation I needed to adjust for each stage. Chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams. I had to shoot groups offhand for each distance because the drop was different offhand than from the bench.

I am not saying that the shooter was not awesome, just saying that the ballistics is repeatable and if your scope isn't it belongs in the trash. Yeah, no sighters that day but I bet a lot of practice other days.

I was at the range last week and I took out my revolver and hit the gong at 100 yards with the first shot. Offhand, iron sights. How is that. It is an 8 moa target the gun will shoot 2 moa groups and I remember the sight picture that was hitting the gong the last time I was shooting. I can hold about 6 moa offhand, the gun is heavy and the trigger is light. It is a Dan Wesson Super Mag in 357 Maximum. If you guns and shooting are not repeatable then we know what you need to work on, consistency.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Actually, I try the same thing with a couple guns I own. Take them to the range and shoot the 100 yard gong, offhand, cold gun. Really the gong is big and if I can't hit that big gong something is wrong. I am talking my 30-30, my 30-06 and the Dan Wesson. I used to have a 300 yard range and then it was a deer target and field positions, sitting, kneeling, crossed sticks. No, I don't think I can shoot a deer at 300 yards offhand, I would not try.

That slow subsonic bullet needs to be used with a range finder and some good wind dope. Wind flags and known ranges is cheating.

Tim

[kens]

this group of guys that was there typically go for the smallest gongs. I cant verify exactly which one he got, but the biggest is 14" at 500.
you may say that is a 3moa gong, fine, but there is so many factors going on that I was impressed.
we all know muzzle crown is critical item, this was a supressor rifle,
we all know the 1st hundredyards goes relatively flat, but progressive ranges go progressively steeper elevation, and he started at 300.
we all know that cast bullet at (approx) 500yd is really close to subsonic, if not already there, it is on a steep downward trajectory, he was subsonic from the get-go.
he got all his elevation adjustment in the scope dials, he did not have to pause to install a canted MOA mount nor anything else.
his elevation was pointed well over the treeline at 500yd,
we all know the 'box test' for a scope is a tall task, he did the better half of box test and bang the gong in doing so.
he shot a gas check bullet without the gas check, many on this forum say that is a no-no for accuracy,
he used a Lee mold and many on this forum have a disdain for Lee,
many people say you need 100% case fill either dacron or some filler, he had none,
some people question his 5-shot group vs 1shot hits, I believe his 5shot groupings were established a long time ago before he worked up his external ballistics, (and memorized them)
Yeah, I also question the 'size of the gong', but when you add all this up, I was impressed

[JoeJames]

I went out to my local range today, the 500 yard line. I am a cast boolit kind of guy, and the 500 yard line is mostly taken over by the Ruger RPR/6.5creedmoor guys.
Today everybody there has any one of the modern AR/15,,,AR10 ,,,AR/bolt action upper style rifles.
One guy had a modern bolt action with a IORValdota or Nightforce scope, and some handload boolits. .308win.
He went to shoot and he say leave your ears out (earplugs). He was supressed and subsonic. He had boolits not bullets.
I started talking to him about twist rate, and he say 1:10".
I was very much surprised as he clanged the dinger at 300yards, with cast boolit in a modern .308 with a fast twist.
He did say his speed was 1050fps subsonic. I accepted his accuracy from 10 twist at that low velocity.
However, he cranked up his scope xxmils elevation and took 1 round at the next gong at 400yards. clang!!
Then he cranked up his scope xxmils elevation and took 1 round at the 500yard gong. clang!!!
Then he cranked his scope back to some form of Zero to put the gun away.
Another guy showed up, started BS'ing talking, the guy takes the gun back, cranks in some more elevation and gives the gun to the new guy shown up.
Gives him 1 round and ...clang!! the 500 yard gong.
I was most impressed.

Shooting like that caused the organizing of the NRA!

[Elkins45]

Not doubting your account but in thinking about this, I came up with a couple questions about what you witnessed.
1050fps is probably what a 7gr load of TB would generate but that is way below the recommended starting load from Hodgdon - maybe a bit scary - don't know. Anybody load that much below TB recommendations before?
How long did the bullet flight take in your opinion?
500yds takes about two full seconds at a MV of 1050. Did it seem that long to you?
Obviously, the guy is quite a marksman but just may have been pulling your chain on the load. You know how some folks are...

My 308 has an 18" barrel. To push a 200 grain cast bullet just below sonic takes me 9.5 grains of Trail Boss. But it's not very accurate compared to other powders in my gun.

[country gent]

While not a 308 Attend a couple BPCR silhouette matches and watch the shooters. AT each range they adjust up to the next "zero" on the tang sight reading the vernier scale. Most get first shot hits on the animal with Loads in the 1150-1200fps range loaded with black powder. They hit rams at 500+ yds consistently with IRON sights. Even the scope shooters are limited to period scopes and 6X with a 3/4" tube. They do this with 1870s era technology.

Most high power shooters have their zeros down to when changing distance the results are Xs first shot as long as they read the wind right. Mt M1A is 1 1/2 clks 200yds, 4clks 300yds and 24 clks 600 yds.

[Larry Gibson]

Kens

I've had several suppressed .308W rifles. While I didn't use cast bullets in them I most often used a 180 gr Sierra RN jacketed for a subsonic load at 1050 fps. The worst they shot was just at moa or a bit over in one rifle. I also didn't use Trail boss. With them staying on a steel F silhouette (old Army prone target) wasn't that difficult out to 600 yards given known ranges and good conditions. I have no doubt it can be done.

this group of guys that was there typically go for the smallest gongs. I cant verify exactly which one he got, but the biggest is 14" at 500.
you may say that is a 3moa gong, fine, but there is so many factors going on that I was impressed.
we all know muzzle crown is critical item, this was a supressor rifle,

I'd say this was not his 1st rodeo shooting that rifle/load at those gongs.
He knew the ranges
He knew his sight settings
Also I'd venture given the cost of suppressing a rifle and with a $2,200+ scope on it the muzzle crown was perfect.

we all know the 1st hundred yards goes relatively flat, but progressive ranges go progressively steeper elevation, and he started at 300.
we all know that cast bullet at (approx) 500yd is really close to subsonic, if not already there, it is on a steep downward trajectory, he was subsonic from the get-go.
he got all his elevation adjustment in the scope dials, he did not have to pause to install a canted MOA mount nor anything else.

As mentioned he knew the sight settings to the various gongs at their ranges. With either scope he had enough elevation adjustment plus 20 - 30 moa hold over with most of the reticles in either scope
You can bet with that set up he already had a 20 or 30 degree base installed.

his elevation was pointed well over the treeline at 500yd,

The line of departure maybe but if adjusting the elevation and connecting like you say he did I doubt the line of sight was.

we all know the 'box test' for a scope is a tall task, he did the better half of box test and bang the gong in doing so.

The two scopes you mention are certainly able to handle the "box test" with ease. That's one of the things the big bucks pay for.

he shot a gas check bullet without the gas check, many on this forum say that is a no-no for accuracy,

At subsonic velocity doing so can be accurate.

he used a Lee mold and many on this forum have a disdain for Lee,

And probably more of us use and like lee moulds along with the much more expensive "custom" moulds. I like mine and I have quite a few lee moulds.

many people say you need 100% case fill either dacron or some filler, he had none,

Not with the faster powders used to get subsonic velocity in a .308W.

some people question his 5-shot group vs 1shot hits, I believe his 5shot groupings were established a long time ago before he worked up his external ballistics, (and memorized them)
Yeah, I also question the 'size of the gong', but when you add all this up, I was impressed

Many of us don't question "accuracy" (as in hitting a target) as compared to "precision" (the grouping size of the load). The guy obviously had a load that could group well and did know his sight settings for those gongs. The best of both.

Yes, I agree, it was "impressive".

[kens]

I have shot cast bullets, and shot MOA groups, and hit the gong, and done the box test, and shot 500yards, and adjusted sights, and shot reduced loads, and all those things:
I just never ran them all together at the same range trip.
I guess that's why I was inspired.

[robg]

Must have an amazing scope to be able to adjust for that amount of drop at 500 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

Must have an amazing scope to be able to adjust for that amount of drop at 500 yards.

Most scopes of the type, make and quality of the two mentioned will be between 65 - 90 moa elevation capable. Additionally using the reticle and add another 20 - 30 moa. The shooter, given a 100 yard zero, probably needed 65 - 75 +/- moa elevation correction.

[kens]

if I understood correctly, he added 27mil from 300 to 500.
his scope was in MIL not MOA so that threw me off my thinking of drop.
I also believe that to be a 40mm scope tube.

and the guy was saying that because he was subsonic all the way, there was an advantage there that he need not pass the trans-sonic stage.
I didnt quite get the full understanding of that part.

[PAT303]

he say 7gr trail boss

7grns is what I use, I went up to 9 but they started cracking, I have only shot to 300m and once dialed in they will hit a 10'' gong every time.

[kens]

The guy say there is a big advantage to staying subsonic the entire time of flight,
I wish someone could explain that to me in layman terms.

[jonp]

I'm still trying to get over the 7grns of Trailboss.

[fastdadio]

The guy say there is a big advantage to staying subsonic the entire time of flight,
I wish someone could explain that to me in layman terms.

It's a deep subject, but give this article a lookieloo.
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide...nsonic-region/

[Larry Gibson]

if I understood correctly, he added 27mil from 300 to 500.
his scope was in MIL not MOA so that threw me off my thinking of drop.
I also believe that to be a 40mm scope tube.

and the guy was saying that because he was subsonic all the way, there was an advantage there that he need not pass the trans-sonic stage.
I didnt quite get the full understanding of that part.

Easy to convert mils to moa or visa versa. One mil basically equals 1 meter at 1000 meters or 1 yard at 1000 yards. That is 36" at 1000 yards or basically 1 mil. At 100 yards 1 mil basically equals 3.6" or the 36" at 1000 yards.

If he was zeroed at 100 yards, if the velocity was 1050 fps and he was using the lee 200 gr cast bullet. then it would take about 24 mils to go from 100 yards to 500 yards or about 80 moa. From 300 yards to 500 yards would require 13 mils/45 moa elevation adjustment. Very doable with certain models of the 2 scopes you mentioned. If he needed 27 mils that indicates the velocity was less than 1050 fps and he went from 100 yard zero to 300 yards then to 500 yards for a total of 27 mils(?).

Regardless of what he may or may not have used for the correct elevation correction what he did was indeed impressive as you say.