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Thread: New Norma Brass, Anneal before working?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    In the old days when reloaders did not have a clue the datum was called a line, and then there was the arrow that pointed at the line with the explanation; datum line.

    You will not believe how long it took to convince reloaders and smiths the datum was a round hole/circle.
    I have gunsmithing and reloading books that date back to the 1920's. Headspace was clearly understood and defined back then. It was understood by most well before then but standardization issues is what brought about the Society of American Manufacturers of Small Arms and Ammunition (SAMSAA) in 1913. In the 1920's SAAMI took over in fulfilling this roll. https://saami.org/about-saami/history/

    No convincing needed for gunsmiths or reloaders. They just looked at the specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    If I had to guess I would guess someone made that up:
    On that you are correct. Yes, someone just made that up. That would be the designer of the cartridge.

    You also need to look up the definition of what an artifact is. When you push a shoulder back the old shoulder is not an artifact. The old shoulder simply no longer exists.

    If I thought you were actually serious I would be willing to continue this discussion but statements like this

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    The reloaders believes he finishes with the same shoulder he started with.
    indicates this is nothing more than trolling. It's applies in your mind only. Must be nice to know what millions of reloaders are thinking.

    Your premise is easily disproved since for as long as people have been pushing shoulders back these same people have been stating the need to neck ream or turn due to the increased wall thickness of the newly formed shoulder when you push shoulders back.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 03-03-2020 at 09:26 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

    – Amber Veal

  2. #22
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    You also need to look up the definition of what an artifact is. When you push a shoulder back the old shoulder is not an artifact. The old should simply no longer exists.
    I have never said this to anyone before but I believe this would be a good place to stop digging.

    If you have the old books where were you when reloaders decaled the datum was a line and then they finished with that old saying "and that is how they do it"?.

    Where were you when reloaders declared the case has head space? Where did you think all of this was headed and no one said anything when Willis declared he invented a digital head space gage. And I am the only one that laughed when he claimed he invented the three legged milk stool.

    F. Guffey

  3. #23
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    Your premise is easily disproved since for as long as people have been pushing shoulders back these same people have been stating the need to neck ream or turn due to the increased wall thickness of the newly formed shoulder when you push shoulders back.
    I always suggest the reloader think about it. What is so difficult to understand when forming/ sizing a case the new neck is formed from the shoulder and the new shoulder is formed from the case body, the shoulder does not move back.

    Again I suggest you think about it, I have suggested reloaders scribe the shoulder/case body juncture.

    think about it: it is not my intension to overload you; I have formed cases, when finished I had the makings of a donut and two junctures from the old shoulder and neck. I did not invent them, I am not the first person to identify the artifacts. BUT I am the one that can not get reloaders to take their hands off the key board, think or get them to take their hands out of their pockets.

    F. Guffey

  4. #24
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    I have gunsmithing and reloading books that date back to the 1920's.
    Good, I have a few old books; all of my old books like Starret and Machinist hand books use the word gage for a gage.

    F. Guffey

  5. #25
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    From Merriam Webster

    The earliest evidence we have for the noun gauge goes back to the 15th century, when English spelling was not yet standardized, and the word in question was spelled gauge and gage with roughly equal frequency. Gauge began to be preferred in the late 19th century for most general uses. Some claim that gage appears as a variant more frequently in the U.S., though our evidence shows that the vast majority of uses for gage are from specialized and technical industries, such as mechanical engineering, manufacturing, and electronics, and that these uses of gage are global, not limited to the U.S. Nonetheless, total use of the word gage is small when compared to the total use of the word gauge.

    The verb gauge, which refers to measuring or estimating, also has a variant gage. This variant appears to show up primarily in informal sources, though not often. Gauge is by far the preferred spelling in general usage for both the noun and the verb; we encourage you use it.




    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    Good, I have a few old books; all of my old books like Starret and Machinist hand books use the word gage for a gage.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  6. #26
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    The verb gauge, which refers to measuring or estimating, also has a variant gage. This variant appears to show up primarily in informal sources, though not often. Gauge is by far the preferred spelling in general usage for both the noun and the verb; we encourage you use it.
    I have a book by Starrett, back in 1920 Starrett named the book The Starrett Data Book for Machinest. Every opportunity Starrett had to use the word ‘gage’ they spelled it ‘gage’. Before that Starrett printed a catalog complete with illustrations, all of the illustrations were of gages. Starrett printed The Starrett book for Machinest in 1941; every oppertunity Starrett had to illustrate a tool they referred to the tool as a gage.

    One day there was a discussion about ‘the correct spelling’ so I dug out a few books including 4 copies of a machinest hand books and the Starrett books; no where in all of those thousandths of page was a gage spelled any other way than ‘gage’.

    And then L Willis labels a dial indicator stand as being a digital head space gage and no one knows what a dial indicator stands looks like. And then there is the case, I do not have a case that has head space.

    I do not know how many years it took the reloading world to catch on/understand the Sinclair/Hornadsy gage is a comparator.

    F. Guffey

  7. #27
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    You also need to look up the definition of what an artifact is. When you push a shoulder back the old shoulder is not an artifact. The old shoulder simply no longer exists.
    The old shoulder moves forward meaning the new shoulder is formed from the case body and the shoulder becomes part of the new neck.

    I am beginning to believe you have never formed a case before. I have 16 forming dies. I do not have a forming die or full length sizing die that will move the shoulder back; because both dies have case body support. One more time, without case body support the case will bulge just below the shoulder because! the shoulder is moving back. And again when you get real good at moving the shoulder back you can created a case that takes on the appearance of an accordion.

    Any reloader that learns how to scribe a case at the shoulder/case body juncture can watch the scribed line move forward as the case is formed and or sized. To prove the shoulder does not move back observe the scribed line.

    The new shoulder is formed from the case body, think about it; the case body is below the scribed line/case body/shoulder juncture.

    F. Guffey

  8. #28
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    I believe the 15th century predates any machinist handbook you can cite.


    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    I have a book by Starrett, back in 1920 Starrett named the book The Starrett Data Book for Machinest. Every opportunity Starrett had to use the word ‘gage’ they spelled it ‘gage’. Before that Starrett printed a catalog complete with illustrations, all of the illustrations were of gages. Starrett printed The Starrett book for Machinest in 1941; every oppertunity Starrett had to illustrate a tool they referred to the tool as a gage.

    One day there was a discussion about ‘the correct spelling’ so I dug out a few books including 4 copies of a machinest hand books and the Starrett books; no where in all of those thousandths of page was a gage spelled any other way than ‘gage’.

    And then L Willis labels a dial indicator stand as being a digital head space gage and no one knows what a dial indicator stands looks like. And then there is the case, I do not have a case that has head space.

    I do not know how many years it took the reloading world to catch on/understand the Sinclair/Hornadsy gage is a comparator.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  9. #29
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    Is that what happens to waves in the ocean?

    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    The old shoulder moves forward meaning the new shoulder is formed from the case body and the shoulder becomes part of the new neck.

    I am beginning to believe you have never formed a case before. I have 16 forming dies. I do not have a forming die or full length sizing die that will move the shoulder back; because both dies have case body support. One more time, without case body support the case will bulge just below the shoulder because! the shoulder is moving back. And again when you get real good at moving the shoulder back you can created a case that takes on the appearance of an accordion.

    Any reloader that learns how to scribe a case at the shoulder/case body juncture can watch the scribed line move forward as the case is formed and or sized. To prove the shoulder does not move back observe the scribed line.

    The new shoulder is formed from the case body, think about it; the case body is below the scribed line/case body/shoulder juncture.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  10. #30
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    EDG no point in feeding the troll.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 03-05-2020 at 10:06 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

    – Amber Veal

  11. #31
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    The new shoulder is formed from the case body, think about it; the case body is below the scribed line/case body/shoulder juncture.
    EDG no point in feeding the troll.
    If you do not know and or understand it should be easy for you to say you do not know and or understand.

    I said it is impossible to move the shoulder back (with a die that has case body support); all reloaders disagree. They do not know what happens to the case when sized, they do not know what happens to the case when fired.

    No one has taken the time to scribe the case body/shoulder juncture of a case before forming/sizing (with one exception). I dug out a plastic container of 20 35 Whelen cases that were formed from LC 43 30/.06 cases. The cases have not been fired after forming. The shoulder/neck juncture of the 30/06 case remains as an artifact. The cases have never been trimmed; The case length from the end of the neck to the case head is from .030" to .040" shorter than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head.

    None of this bothers me except for the short cases, I want to cover the chamber with the case, I do not want to expose any part of the chamber with a flame front.

    Not being helpless I prefer to use 280 Remington cases when forming 35 Whelen cases. The 280 Remington case is .041" longer than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head. The longer 280 case allows me to off set the effect of forming a 30/06 case to a 35 Whelen. There are other advantages but we will never get to the point we can discuss 'HOW' because it is impossible to move the shoulder back because moving the shoulder back would shorten the case from the case body/shoulder juncture to the case head.

    F. Guffey

  12. #32
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    Guffy,
    Yes you have a knack for confusing semantics that little application in reloading discussions. You forgot the topic not forming 35 Whelen brass. The topic is pushing shoulders back.
    Cases do have shoulders.
    I think you would agree to that.
    When you make a new case from an old case the new case also has a shoulder.
    So how did you get your new shoulder? Where did the new shoulder come from?
    Did it just appear from thin air? No the shoulder position was moved by using a reloading die.
    If you began with basic brass then you began with - (gasp) no shoulder.
    So how do you get a shoulder on basic brass?
    You form it.
    When you begin forming the shoulder on basic brass it is initially at the mouth of the case neck.
    Then what do you do to move the shoulder position down to the desire location?
    Since you cannot move shoulders apparently you cannot reload ammo.
    The rest of us do not have that issue and we are able to converse with the rest of the reloading world without attempting to confuse people.



    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    If you do not know and or understand it should be easy for you to say you do not know and or understand.

    I said it is impossible to move the shoulder back (with a die that has case body support); all reloaders disagree. They do not know what happens to the case when sized, they do not know what happens to the case when fired.

    No one has taken the time to scribe the case body/shoulder juncture of a case before forming/sizing (with one exception). I dug out a plastic container of 20 35 Whelen cases that were formed from LC 43 30/.06 cases. The cases have not been fired after forming. The shoulder/neck juncture of the 30/06 case remains as an artifact. The cases have never been trimmed; The case length from the end of the neck to the case head is from .030" to .040" shorter than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head.

    None of this bothers me except for the short cases, I want to cover the chamber with the case, I do not want to expose any part of the chamber with a flame front.

    Not being helpless I prefer to use 280 Remington cases when forming 35 Whelen cases. The 280 Remington case is .041" longer than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head. The longer 280 case allows me to off set the effect of forming a 30/06 case to a 35 Whelen. There are other advantages but we will never get to the point we can discuss 'HOW' because it is impossible to move the shoulder back because moving the shoulder back would shorten the case from the case body/shoulder juncture to the case head.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  13. #33
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    =EDG;4844555]Guffy,
    Yes you have a knack for confusing semantics that little application in reloading discussions. You forgot the topic not forming 35 Whelen brass. The topic is pushing shoulders back.
    Cases do have shoulders.
    I think you would agree to that.

    The shoulder on a case does not lock me up and of drive me to the curb. The one thing I can not do with a shoulder is push it back with a die that case body support. I understand the shoulder I finish with is not the shoulder I started with; If the shoulder moves it moves forward. When it moves forward the new shoulder is formed from the case body, And now? I am convinced reloading is mind boggling for thing for most. Reloading is mind boggling because reloaders refuse to remove their hands from the key board.

    I understand it sounds cool to say “I bump’ or “I move the shoulder back’, it can not be made any simpler; It is impossible to move the shoulder back and then there is ‘bump’, bump is a function of the press. I understand on the Internet it sounds like reloaders understand what is happening when the case is sized or formed. Reloading forums should not be socially dysfunctional.

    One day I went to a Manufacturer/distruster of reloading components and equipment; I wanted to purchase some equipment, it was about that time the technical person in charge started telling me everything he knew about sizing and forming cases. It was about that time I suggested he had never formed cases by using the procedures he described. And he said “no”. Had he said ‘yes” I was going to ask him to show me?

    When I got home I did not fire up the computer, instead I sorted through 14 sets of forming dies, I measure and found one die that was too short, I measured the difference in length between the two cases and then adjusted the short forming die off the shell holder and then started forming cases for the 7.65 B.M.

    I used 30/06 cases when forming the 7.65 B.M cases, It was like magic, the new shoulder was formed from the case body, Part of the neck was formed from the shoulder of the 30/06, That just can not happen if the shoulder of the case is ‘pushed back.

    I can shorten the distance from the datum/shoulder to the case head, it is impossible to move the shoulder back when shortening the distance.

    And then there is increasing the distance from the datum to the case head. I went to a firing range looking for cases that were long from the datum to the case head; all I had in the way of case measuring equipment was home made stuff. The ranges officers provided space and a table, and fired range pick up cases, 7 cents each or $7.00 for 110 cases.

    Move the shoulder back on those cases? NO, I use those cases to off set the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel and that is another mind braking thing, not all of my cases travel.

    F. Guffey



    When you make a new case from an old case the new case also has a shoulder.
    So how did you get your new shoulder? Where did the new shoulder come from?
    Did it just appear from thin air? No the shoulder position was moved by using a reloading die.
    If you began with basic brass then you began with - (gasp) no shoulder.
    So how do you get a shoulder on basic brass?
    You form it.
    When you begin forming the shoulder on basic brass it is initially at the mouth of the case neck.
    Then what do you do to move the shoulder position down to the desire location?
    Since you cannot move shoulders apparently you cannot reload ammo.
    The rest of us do not have that issue and we are able to converse with the rest of the reloading world without attempting to confuse people.
    One more time, the shoulder the reloadeer starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with. But if it is the reloader must consider he is neck sizing the case. I have neck sizing dies and I can neck size with a full length sizing die that has full case body support.
    Last edited by fguffey; 03-06-2020 at 01:40 PM. Reason: change s to f

  14. #34
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    In the ocean the wave moves but the water does not. In a reformed case the shoulder moves but the brass does not. The new shoulder is made from different brass than the old shoulder was.

    I fail to see how this makes any practical difference. "Moving the shoulder back" is an understandable phrase even if it's not semantically correct. It just means "establishing a new shoulder lower on the case body."
    NRA Endowment Member

    Armed people don't march into gas chambers.

  15. #35
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    In the ocean the wave moves but the water does not. In a reformed case the shoulder moves but the brass does not.
    I should say something like "tell me you are kidding" or "someone please tell me Elkins45 is kidding" etc. but I believe he actually believe he knows what he is talking about. I have formed 100 cases using 30/06 cases; after forming I had to trim 35" of brass from the cases after forming. I had no ideal reloading was so mind boggling to the reloader. When forming the cases the case the shoulder became part of the neck and the new shoulder was formed from the case body.

    If the brass does not move the case does not get lighter in weight when trimming. Bart B. claimed he fired a 308 W case 43 times with heavy loads and during all of this punishment the case suffered no serious after effects' and reloaders oohed and awed. All I wanted to know was the weight of the case when he started and the weight when he finished.

    I was at a gun show when a proud owner of a new custom riffle accused the builder of the rifle he screwed up when he cut the chamber. Setting behind a table without any tools makes it difficult to give the proud owner an answer. So It was suggested he bring the rifle to his shop during. And then the proud owner got to me. I asked him if he would allow me to see the case that indicated a head space problem. He handed me the case and I asked; is this the only case you have, are you loading it and firing it over and over and over etc. etc. again and again. And then I offered to form him 250 cases for his rifle. The builder of the rifle walked down to see the case again. It was about that time the builder suggested the owner take the case to a non-bias party for another opinion. The old non-bias smith pulled the case apart and measure the thickens of the case wall. The case wall thickness was .002", it was about that time the non-bias smith told him .002" to .003" is a good thickness for paper but it is not a good thickness for cases. And then it was about that time the non-biased individual asked him if that was the only case he had. The proud owner did not take me up on my offer to form cases for his rifle. Now, if that brass did not move where did it go? And none of it moved back. If the proud owner had claimed he fired that case 43 times I would have believed him.

    F. Guffey
    Last edited by fguffey; 03-07-2020 at 03:57 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check