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Thread: New Norma Brass, Anneal before working?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    New Norma Brass, Anneal before working?

    I am going to neck up some New Norma 8x57r brass to 10mm for a project I have been working on. Thoughts on re annealing it before trying to stretch the necks? Plan is to take it to .35 first, then 10mm. Making a long tapered mandrel on the lathe to do the work that fits into a Lee die body.

    This brass doesn't grow on trees, so I would hate to lose any.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    I would definitely anneal it first. A 10x57mm sounds neat.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    it can be a crap shoot on annealing. necking up isnt as bad as down but..... I have had some new 30-30 that needed annealing before expanding for 357 herrets while the next batch was fine with out. I have seen this with other calibers also necking up. I normally have more issues when moving the shoulder back or changing the angle than expanding up.
    Try a couple lube the necks good with a good lube, here my preference is imperial sizing die wax. Glue a appropriate nylon brush or cotton bore swab in a small file handle and use this to lube the necks.
    Making your own expander is a plus. cut the taper as straight and true as possible cut the to size portion a couple thou over sized and polish in bright. REmeber to allow for spring back in the brass

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    Have done a lot of 6mmBR necked up to 338 and annealing prior to expanding was a bad idea. In about 50-60% of the cases the neck was turned inside out and pushed into the case. Without annealing 100% of the cases necked up fine in one shot. We normally do it in 2 stages because it makes the necks more consistent in thickness but even in two stages we had necks pushed into the case when we annealed. If you're using new brass its already been annealed so give it a shot as-is to start and see how it goes.

    Good luck

    Frank

  5. #5
    Boolit Master



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    Not worth taking a chance. Anneal. Starline even recommends annealing some of their new brass.

  6. #6
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    I'm thinking Norma brass already has annealed necks .
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I wouldn't anneal new Norma brass. I have a lot of 7.7 Jap brass made by Norma and it seems to be softer than other brands.I annealed a box and had to go under size for the expander ball to keep the neck tension right.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I have a bunch of old and new 7.65x43mm Argy brass. The majority has only been fired once but it sat in my stash for years. Yes annealing is on my schedule. Frank

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    I normally have more issues when moving the shoulder back or changing the angle than expanding up.
    Normally I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back; someone has convinced the reloading world moving the shoulder back does not require thinking, all a reloader has to say "I move the shoulder back" and it is done.

    It is much easier to run me off than it is to convenes me it is possible to move the shoulder back.

    F. Guffey

    Neck up and or down sounds like it goes with the neck getting thinner and or thicker. and I wonder why the neck never gets longer and or shorter. It is possible someone with a lot of influence will suggest it could be both.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    What do you call what happens to case shoulders when you make .250 Savage cases from .30-06 brass?
    I have a set of RCBS dies that do exactly that.


    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    Normally I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back; someone has convinced the reloading world moving the shoulder back does not require thinking, all a reloader has to say "I move the shoulder back" and it is done.

    It is much easier to run me off than it is to convenes me it is possible to move the shoulder back.

    F. Guffey

    Neck up and or down sounds like it goes with the neck getting thinner and or thicker. and I wonder why the neck never gets longer and or shorter. It is possible someone with a lot of influence will suggest it could be both.
    EDG

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    What do you call what happens to case shoulders when you make .250 Savage cases from .30-06 brass?
    I have a set of RCBS dies that do exactly that.
    In the old days the Greek had a word for same; it was called 'iso'. If you could imagine two Greek guys passing each other on the street; one asked the other "what's up?", the other responds with "iso, iso". Today the response is 'same-o. same-o'.

    The answer to your questions?; nothing changed, when forming it is impossible to move the shoulder back. The reloaders believes he finishes with the same shoulder he started with. It is possible to shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head; it is not possible to move the shoulder back.

    When forming 250 Savage from 30/06 cases the 250 savage shoulder is formed from the 30/06 case body and part of the neck is formed from the 30/06 shoulder, meaning; the shoulder of the 30/06 case did not move back, it moved forward.

    If it was possible to move the shoulder back the case between the case body/shoulder juncture and case head would have to compress. That can not happen because the sizing die and forming die has case body support, that leaves the shoulder no choice but to move forward.

    Without case body support the case body has no choice but to bulge and of form folds and or bellows at the case body/shoulder juncture. Reloaders experience this problem when using too much seating and crimping. The seating die does not have case body support; but, if a reloader could increase case body support while seating he could increase bullet hold. And that would create a conundrum.

    F. Guffey

  12. #12
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    When necking up to a larger caliber, the case shoulder has to be strong enough not to buckle and collapse as you force the expanding ball down through it. I ruined several annealed 257 RAI cases this way, the shoulder was too soft after a deep annealing process, and they buckled.

    I would suggest 2 things. Anneal after the first or second expansion, and do it mildly. That is, no need to get it red hot. Just hot enough to see some colors start changing, then dunk it.

    Second thing, do the whole process one case at a time until you perfect it. Then do the rest as a batch. That way you don't get stuck with all of your cases in a bad state.
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  13. #13
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    I would anneal the formed brass but not before and would include a .375 step between 35 and 40 cal. Butter soft annealed 06 to Whelen will collapse the shoulder, you will too.
    Hell, I was there!

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    As was stated above the original shoulder is where it was the new shoulder is formed from the body if the case. The original shoulder is used to form the new neck. Cases being sized down in neck dia and body dia do grow in length slightly but the thickening is the shortest trip for the moving brass to make.

    When sizing 45-70 down to 40-65 the tapered case grows in length around .040-.050, but the neck wall thickness also grows slightly.

    When doing this forming consider that there is a set amount of brass in the case and it has to go somewhere when forming down or up. This is what makes forming truly concentric brass hard.

    A case walls are not the same base to case mouth. They taper in thickness, at the radius from the case head they may be as much as .020 thick and thin to the mouth thickness of .010-.012. Do to this a new formed down case formed down usually has slightly less capacity. This isnt the big issue that the neck is since thickened necks may keep rounds from chambering. Slightly thicker shoulders and bodies may take a little more to fire form out and size just a little harder. Annealing after forming helps here a lot.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    In my practical and pragmatic world the shoulder gets pushed back.
    In the old days the Greeks did not reload so they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
    The shoulder is a geometric feature and moves back just as surely as waves move in water.
    I suppose in your world the flat spot on a tire cannot move either....



    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    In the old days the Greek had a word for same; it was called 'iso'. If you could imagine two Greek guys passing each other on the street; one asked the other "what's up?", the other responds with "iso, iso". Today the response is 'same-o. same-o'.

    The answer to your questions?; nothing changed, when forming it is impossible to move the shoulder back. The reloaders believes he finishes with the same shoulder he started with. It is possible to shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head; it is not possible to move the shoulder back.

    When forming 250 Savage from 30/06 cases the 250 savage shoulder is formed from the 30/06 case body and part of the neck is formed from the 30/06 shoulder, meaning; the shoulder of the 30/06 case did not move back, it moved forward.

    If it was possible to move the shoulder back the case between the case body/shoulder juncture and case head would have to compress. That can not happen because the sizing die and forming die has case body support, that leaves the shoulder no choice but to move forward.

    Without case body support the case body has no choice but to bulge and of form folds and or bellows at the case body/shoulder juncture. Reloaders experience this problem when using too much seating and crimping. The seating die does not have case body support; but, if a reloader could increase case body support while seating he could increase bullet hold. And that would create a conundrum.

    F. Guffey
    EDG

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    The shoulder is a geometric feature and moves back just as surely as waves move in water.
    In the old days the Greeks did not reload so they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
    The shoulder of the case must move forward through the die; if it does not the case must bulge or fold, If a reloader could get real good while moving the shoulder back he could make the case take on the appearance of a Volkswagen thermostat, or an accordion.

    F. Guffey

    It is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. It is possible to prove it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support but; it is impossible to get a reloader to think about it or take their hands off of the key board. And then there are those than can not acknowledge they were wrong, I have never been able to get a reloader to scribe a line at the case body/shoulder juncture. If it was possible to move the shoulder back the shoulder/case body juncture would bulge, if the sizing die did not have case body support the case would develop bellows like an accordion below the scribed line.

    It is beyond the ability to imagine the shoulder moving forward, if someone scribed a line at the shoulder/case body juncture they would notice the scribed line becomes an artifact. Reloaders have tension but they do not have artifacts (back to the Greek); when I form cases with forming dies I created artifacts, I have never had an artifact move back, they always move forward.

    F. Guffey

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
    it is impossible to get a reloader to think about it or take their hands off of the key board. And then there are those than can not acknowledge they were wrong,
    Too see an example a mirror may be helpful.

    The shoulder on a rifle case is nothing more than the area that establishes headspace on rimless and non belted case. If you take a 30-06 case a size it in a 308 die the shoulder is reestablished at a different location and the old shoulder is converted into a neck.

    https://bisonballistics.com/articles...to-rifle-cases

    Shoulder: The case shoulder is the area that controls the cartridge's headspace. Headspace is the measurement from the base to a datum line (measurement reference) on the case, usually specified as a point on the shoulder at which the case is a certain diameter (which is specified by the cartridge designer).
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 03-03-2020 at 02:22 AM.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    If you take a 30-06 case a size it in a 308 die the shoulder is reestablished at a different location and the old shoulder is converted into a neck.
    Reestablished? The shoulder you started with on the 30/06 case became part of the case body and then there is the neck; I have no ideal what is so complicated about the shoulder of the 30/06 becoming part of the case neck. And then there are those that chambered 308W rounds in a 30/06 chamber; when the trigger was pulled the neck 'almost' disappeared. And then it became more complicated because no-one knew how the case headspace.

    So the shoulder a reloaders finishes with is not the same shoulder he started with.

    Again, I chambered an 8mm57 round in one of my 8mm06 rifles. Forget head space, the datum on the 8mm06 is .127" longer than the distance from the datum to the case head on an 8mm57. When fired the shoulder of the 8mm57 became part of the shoulder on the 8mm06 case and the neck almost disappeared. The shoulder I started with is not the same shoulder I finished with; the shoulder of the 8MM57 did move, the old shoulder became an artifact.

    F. Guffey

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Shoulder: The case shoulder is the area that controls the cartridge's headspace. Headspace is the measurement from the base to a datum line (measurement reference) on the case, usually specified as a point on the shoulder at which the case is a certain diameter (which is specified by the cartridge designer).
    If I had to guess I would guess someone made that up:

    The case has a shoulder, somewhere on the shoulder is a datum. In the old days when reloaders did not have a clue the datum was called a line, and then there was the arrow that pointed at the line with the explanation; datum line.

    You will not believe how long it took to convince reloaders and smiths the datum was a round hole/circle. And then it was explained the round hole/circle for the 30/06 was 3/8" or .375:". Rather than to get someone to think about it reloaders claimed the datum was located halfway between the shoulder/neck juncture and the case body/shoulder juncture. And I wondered how could that be if the datum was the same for the 30/06, 270 and 25/06.
    F. Guffey

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    What do you call what happens to case shoulders when you make .250 Savage cases from .30-06 brass?
    I have a set of RCBS dies that do exactly that.
    No you do not; You have a forming die that you know nothing about or you know nothing about case forming.

    Again, the shoulder you start with is not the same shoulder you finish with. The shoulder of the 250 Savage was formed from the 30/06 case body, part of the 30/06 shoulder became part of the 250 Savage case neck.

    Again; it is impossible to move the case shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. It has always been like that, it is not something I made up, the rules were established long before me.

    And then one day I decided I would move the shoulder back, the only way I could move a shoulder back was to collapse the case below the shoulder; when I finished the cases took on the appearance of an accordion or Volkswagen thermostat.

    F. Guffey

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check