Question about 9mm being swaged down

[WT101]

I had been getting really bad leading in 9mm shooting Hi-tek coated heavy-for-caliber bullets (trying to work up a soft-shooting USPSA load). Didn't matter what pistol they were fired from, the leading was pretty atrocious all the way down the barrel. Finally figured out last night that the cases were swaging the bullets down to .354 or .3545. Was getting less leading with bullets cast in a different mold, a Lee 356-125-2R, but was still getting some. Come to find out, they were being swaged down, too.

So I got on here, did some reading, and that's where my question comes in: am I understanding correctly that I need to buy either a Lee Universal Expanding die and a NOE expander plug or a Lyman M-die? Does the expanding plug expand the brass down to the bullet seating depth so the case doesn't swage the bullets down?

[Wheelguns 1961]

Yes you are correct. In my experience, the noe expander with the lee universal expander is the better setup. What are you sizing your bullets to? I like the noe expanders better because I was using a lyman m-die for 45 colt, and I measured it, and it was only .448. I don’t know if it was that way when I bought it, or it wore down.

[Taterhead]

What is the diameter of the current expander?

NOE has a pistol plug sized .356. Great tools. Yes it will reach sufficiently deep into the neck.

The Lyman M die might not give any extra expansion over the die in your set, but I believe that retrofit expander shanks are available with some additional diameter.

[Kenstone]

You don't say what dies you are using so it's hard recommend something (else).
Wall thickness variation of "range brass" is what causes most of the bullet swage when loading bullets bigger than 0.356" dia.

Some even have steps/shoulders that cannot be detected without wet/pin tumbling.
So separating brass by brand is a good thing to start.
If you are using a Lee PTE there is an over-size expander that is a direct swap available many places:
https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html
https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-s...h=Lee%20SE1699

Here's a recent thread on the subject:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ve-Differences.
Pulling/measuring a bullet after each die will show which die is swaging the bullet, could even be under-expanding.

[jessdigs]

Those noe expanders are great tools. And at $6 each, one can afford to buy one for each caliber you load for.

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[WT101]

Yes you are correct. In my experience, the noe expander with the lee universal expander is the better setup. What are you sizing your bullets to? I like the noe expanders better because I was using a lyman m-die for 45 colt, and I measured it, and it was only .448. I don’t know if it was that way when I bought it, or it wore down.

Using water quenched range scrap, they are coming out at .357-.3575 so I hadn't been sizing them.

What is the diameter of the current expander?

NOE has a pistol plug sized .356. Great tools. Yes it will reach sufficiently deep into the neck.

The Lyman M die might not give any extra expansion over the die in your set, but I believe that retrofit expander shanks are available with some additional diameter.

Not using an expander, just using a Hornady Custom Grade 3 die set which just bells the case mouth at the expander station

You don't say what dies you are using so it's hard recommend something (else).
Wall thickness variation of "range brass" is what causes most of the bullet swage when loading bullets bigger than 0.356" dia.

Some even have steps/shoulders that cannot be detected without wet/pin tumbling.
So separating brass by brand is a good thing to start.
If you are using a Lee PTE there is an over-size expander that is a direct swap available many places:
https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html
https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-s...h=Lee%20SE1699

Here's a recent thread on the subject:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ve-Differences.
Pulling/measuring a bullet after each die will show which die is swaging the bullet, could even be under-expanding.

Using Hornady Custom Grade dies. As I understand it, on the "expander" die it is only capable of belling the case mouth. If you try to adjust it to go further into the case it just bells the mouth outrageously and ruins the piece of brass.

Interesting observation: I took a piece of brass and ran it through the resizing/decapping die and interior of the case mouth measured .352 resized. So it's no surprise, I guess, that my boolits are being swaged down when I seat them.

[Phlier]

In addition to the above recommended expanders, you might want to consider hardening up your alloy a bit, too. Anything less than 14 bhn gives me unacceptable swaging, with 16 bhn being the sweet spot.

[jessdigs]

Interesting observation: I took a piece of brass and ran it through the resizing/decapping die and interior of the case mouth measured .352 resized. So it's no surprise, I guess, that my boolits are being swaged down when I seat them.

Seat a bullet in a case just like you would but without primer/powder, and then kinetic pull the bullet. Measure the base. If it's swaging down as much as it most likely is, an expander will go a long way to help solve your problem. It worked so well for me, I bought a plug in every size I load for, and some I plan on. $80 all in delivered.
And as Phlier mentioned, hardening the alloy will do the rest.



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[mdi]

Would you, by any chance, be using a Lee FCD? I have reloaded quite a few 9mm using cast bullets of around 14-16 BHN, mixed brass, and have not had any bullets sized down by the case. I just use a Lee powder through expanding die and "crimp" with a plain Jane taper crimp die...

[Michael J. Spangler]

I am going to second the suggestion of hardening you’re bullets. I had issues with my 9mm either with coating, traditional lube or tumble lube. I realized it was all due to the soft alloy being swaged down during seating.
I now cast from 2%tin 3% antimony and water drop after the last coat of Hi-Tek. This has solved all of my issues. After a couple days of aging the bullets are plenty hard to hold their shape under neck tension without being swaged down.
Problem solved without having to buy another expander.

[Kenstone]

Using water quenched range scrap, they are coming out at .357-.3575 so I hadn't been sizing them.



Not using an expander, just using a Hornady Custom Grade 3 die set which just bells the case mouth at the expander station



Using Hornady Custom Grade dies. As I understand it, on the "expander" die it is only capable of belling the case mouth. If you try to adjust it to go further into the case it just bells the mouth outrageously and ruins the piece of brass.

Interesting observation: I took a piece of brass and ran it through the resizing/decapping die and interior of the case mouth measured .352 resized. So it's no surprise, I guess, that my boolits are being swaged down when I seat them.

Wow ok, not expanding, there in lies your problem.
I never heard of re-loading without expanding before.
Thanks for reading/quoting my post,

[tomme boy]

Get a LEE 9mm powder die and replace the expander with a LEE 38S&W expander. That will all you need to do. Don't worry about making your lead any harder than it is right now. Water drop them after coating if you can do that with Hitec. It works great with powder coating.

[jmorris]

You need to figure out where in the process the bullet is being swaged.

You can size and expand a case then seat and pull a bullet and see what happens, then you can size, expand, seat, then crimp and if that’s where you are crushing them, nothing is going to help you except setting your crimp die correctly.

9mm is tapered as well, so you can move the size die up and not size the case as much, if you are sizing more than necessary and require a big expander to open it back up. You can’t do that with straight walled cases, so your lucky, in that it’s just an adjustment vs an additional purchase.

[Dvdmacdaddy]

Yes you are correct. In my experience, the noe expander with the lee universal expander is the better setup. What are you sizing your bullets to? I like the noe expanders better because I was using a lyman m-die for 45 colt, and I measured it, and it was only .448. I don’t know if it was that way when I bought it, or it wore down.

Interesting, I’ll have to measure the M die I’ve been using for 9mm. Haven’t had any leading issues since I started using it, before hand I had the same issues as the OP.

I do need more M dies for my other calibers and the NOE route is cheaper. If the measurements on the M due are off then the NOE route is happening .

[WT101]

You need to figure out where in the process the bullet is being swaged.

You can size and expand a case then seat and pull a bullet and see what happens, then you can size, expand, seat, then crimp and if that’s where you are crushing them, nothing is going to help you except setting your crimp die correctly.

9mm is tapered as well, so you can move the size die up and not size the case as much, if you are sizing more than necessary and require a big expander to open it back up. You can’t do that with straight walled cases, so your lucky, in that it’s just an adjustment vs an additional purchase.

The swaging is happening on the bottom third or so of the bullet and the bullet goes back to correct diameter toward the front of the bullet before the ogive starts which definitely suggests to me it's happening during seating. I only put enough crimp to take the bell out of the case and make sure it will easily drop in a Lyman case gauge.

[jmorris]

The swaging is happening on the bottom third or so of the bullet and the bullet goes back to correct diameter toward the front of the bullet before the ogive starts which definitely suggests to me it's happening during seating.

The swaging only at the bottom of the bullet accompanied by the “heavy for caliber bullet”, seems a likely culprit to me. At least something else to check.

Cross section one of your cases and see if the bullet seated to the depth you are using is getting to the thicker part of the case wall below the point normal bullets stop. There are also stepped cases that can cause problems with even 147’s.



If you wanted to do a quick check just seat a bullet longer by how much the base is being swaged down now and see what that does. If .060” of the base is swaged down, seat one so the OAL is .060” longer and see if the problem goes away.

FWIW if that is your problem and you expand that portion of the case, you will just push the walls out and the round likely won’t work at all.

Fast forward to 1:12 in this one and you can see what stepped cases look like from the mouth.

[ioon44]

I have been moving my size die up so the case is not sized more than I need, this has helped my bullets to stay at the diameter I want.

One needs to make sure you have enough neck tension so as to have set back and make sure the rounds pass the plunk test.

[Ramson222]

I solved the same problem with a NOE expander when loading for a berreta 92s, in fact I use NOE expanders for all of my cast bullets.

[Burnt Fingers]

A good heavy for caliber bullet for the 9mm is the NOE ELCO. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/prod...358-155-tc-as5

The nose profile allows you to seat it much longer than most bullets that weight.

If you're still having problems then you most likely need to have the barrel throated. Very few 9mm barrels are properly throated.

[TGM]

WT101 did not say what his powder charge was. To light a powder charge can be a cause of barrel leading.