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Thread: 1/2" at what range

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master



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    To meet the OP's criteria each and ever shot has to be within plus or minus 1/8" of the absolute dead center for both POI and group size. Even at 25 yards with the best ammo and equipment (which I have) I don't believe I would claim I can do it consistently.

    On the other hand I am more than willing to take a bet for anyone that claims they can. Any takers for say $100 per group for 5 groups at 50 yards? Even at 25 yard that's going to be a safe bet except for a few world class shooters with world class equipment.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  2. #62
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    To meet the OP's criteria each and ever shot has to be within plus or minus 1/8" of the absolute dead center for both POI and group size. Even at 25 yards with the best ammo and equipment (which I have) I don't believe I would claim I can do it consistently.

    On the other hand I am more than willing to take a bet for anyone that claims they can. Any takers for say $100 per group for 5 groups at 50 yards? Even at 25 yard that's going to be a safe bet except for a few world class shooters with world class equipment.
    The voice of sanity.
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  3. #63
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    MTecs You’re going to get rich off betting.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    MTecs You’re going to get rich off betting.
    I wish. Strange thing is most people get strangely quiet will they have to back it up with money. I have won three $100 bets on 1,000 yard shots or should I say lack of shots.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-26-2020 at 10:54 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  5. #65
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    It gets even more interesting, So a perfect score on a .056 10 ring.... every time, don’t know about that, nobody wins every match. The 50 ft small bore target has a dot for 10 ring, not sure of dia. I shot consistent clean targets, at 50 ft indoors and with a real target rifle and top shelf ammo. But there was the occasional day that I blew it and dropped a shot. Now to do that with a stock factory Sporter, nope not happening. Not for 5 groups in a row, a couple out of 5 possibly. Would be an interesting competition. Pick your distance shoot your 5, on 5 separate bulls with the dot. Clean it and move on, drop one and eliminated. Strategy, precision, repeatability. I can’t do it every time at 25 yards, but I would like to see if I can do it more consistently than others, that’s competition. Interesting concept, quite interesting.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    It gets even more interesting, So a perfect score on a .056 10 ring.... every time, don’t know about that, nobody wins every match. The 50 ft small bore target has a dot for 10 ring, not sure of dia. I shot consistent clean targets, at 50 ft indoors and with a real target rifle and top shelf ammo. But there was the occasional day that I blew it and dropped a shot. Now to do that with a stock factory Sporter, nope not happening. Not for 5 groups in a row, a couple out of 5 possibly. Would be an interesting competition. Pick your distance shoot your 5, on 5 separate bulls with the dot. Clean it and move on, drop one and eliminated. Strategy, precision, repeatability. I can’t do it every time at 25 yards, but I would like to see if I can do it more consistently than others, that’s competition. Interesting concept, quite interesting.
    In high school we used to shoot 50 ft. indoor 4 position small bore. I was a bad day if I did not shoot a perfect prone target. We used the A-17 target, the 10 ring was 0.150" in diameter. That means not quite a half inch, that is 0.59" at 50 ft. almost every time for 10 shots with a three pound trigger, prone with iron (peep) sights. We used Win or Rem standard velocity ammo, not premium.

    With the same gun, premium ammo, a scope and my bench rest supports and only 5 shots per circle I am sure I can do better on a calm day. I think 25 yards is do able. The 9 ring on the A-17 target is 0.483" close enough for a go. If 17 thousandths of an inch make a difference I say close enough. Sadly the range was flooded this week end, no shooting.

    This target look familiar to anyone?

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.creedmo...A17_target.jpg


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  7. #67
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    When scoring normal targets if the bullet touches the line you get the higher value. Per the OP all shots must be inside the 1/2" circle. The group can not touch the line. Group has to be less than .278" center to center if it is perfectly centered. If not perfectly centered the group has to be smaller.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    When scoring normal targets if the bullet touches the line you get the higher value. Per the OP all shots must be inside the 1/2" circle. The group can not touch the line. Group has to be less than .278" center to center if it is perfectly centered. If not perfectly centered the group has to be smaller.
    …..and at 50 yards with a sporter and even the best of ammunition that would be a real challenge....just to do it once let alone consistently...….

    Just using 50 yards for a range example because it would be a challenge. We can shrink it to a shorter and shorter range until we can do it but what's the challenge in that?
    Larry Gibson

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  9. #69
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I guess the better question is what rifles and ammo are capable of consistently shooting groups that tight at 50 yards and even a 100 yards? I’m sure somebody can do it once or twice just like it stated but I’d like to see if there’s any rifles and ammo combos that could do it consistently at 100 yards. And I’m not talking a person I’m talking a gun put in a ransom rest or vise like the factory dose to check ammo...is it even possible? I realize there’s just too many variables with the 22 LR. And also, if so, what is the cost and the what kind of rifle and ammo? That’s why I started shooting 22 WMR. It shoots Sub MOA pretty consistently with two different types of ammo and it’s just a cheap production gun I spent all of $200 on. I would assume without a doubt it’s more on the ammo than the gun when it comes to 22 LR.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 01-27-2020 at 12:21 PM.

  10. #70
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    Are those aggregates or single groups and are they 10 shots or 5.
    5 shot groups
    Regards
    John

  11. #71
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    That target is what we called the NRA target, I am referring to the ISU target. It had a dot for the 10 ring and 2 sighted bulls. I think the dot was 1 mm but need to look that up. As an 18 year old I could reasonably expect to clean that NRA target in all but standing. Several 97s offhand but I was inconsistent. Was shooting my FWB300 yesterday evening at a magnetic silliwettee box at 25 yards. After a bit I hung a bull to adjust zero, dang I suck now! Offhand group would not have held the black. Out of shape old guy, cold and no shooting jacket,, but it was fun.

    Looked up the USAS 50 target that we used in 3 position. 10 ring was .76mm. (.0299”)

    Back on topic, I would like to see if our club would like to try a game like this. Like, horse, draw for a starting distance. Say 25 yards, anyone miss the 1mm dot is eliminated. Move to 30 yards, them 40 and so on. Suspect it would end before 40 yards! Could make a knock down metal with a .500 drilled hole for each competitor, shoot one at a time, like trap, till either 5 shots or their target knocked is knocked over. Then shift back, sounds fun! Would even be fun for spectators,.... tormentors
    Last edited by rking22; 01-27-2020 at 06:29 PM.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  12. #72
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    Thinking more along that line, yeah I know, bad idea. Could be like chunk gun shooting, bring your own target with your chosen “mark” for sighting. At entry use go/no go gage to certify the target for diameter and foot only to the front. Any shot touching the 1/2 inch ring would tip the target, ending your competition for that round. Shoulder to shoulder, miss and out, last target standing after 5 shots wins. Never going to find the answer without testing
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  13. #73
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    I went out to do a little squirrel hunting today and they didn’t cooperate. I wanted to test the CCI hi shock segmented on them. The snow is almost a foot deep and I’ve been sick for a week so I didn’t go as far as I could’ve looking for squirrels that probably weren’t out anyways. I sat in my deer shack for a couple hours and did the lazy thing.lol I then decided to shoot out some pieces of leaves sticking out of the snow at 50 yards with the high shocks. Was curious to see if they were going to hit the same POA is the stingers that I have sighted in dead center at 50 yards. I shot at the tip of a leaf twice and could see I was a little bit to the right. The third shot nailed it. I know I was wiggling around to. So I decided to go to the range on the way home and try it again on paper. I shot at 50 yards and forgot I only like four bullets fly because I was shooting the breeze with some guy with an AR about coyote hunting. Once I got my target and realized I only shot four times I figured I would shoot another group of four to keep it fair. The Quik Shoks shoots just as tight as the stingers it seems but a little low and right at 50 yards. I was once again shocked that it grouped halfway decent with this ammo like the stingers since every post that I’ve read say that stingers in high shocks don’t group worth a darn and CZ’s or any rifles for that matter. Even after watching several YouTube videos of people shooting them with crummy groups... But most of those guys on YouTube never shot groups under half inches with other ammos to begin with. I have to say at 50 yards they’re both minute of squirrel head if I click up one and left one. Before I just my scope I’m going to try the same on a few squirrels at close range to see what it does or does not do. I did shoot through four sheets of really thin roof flashing that someone threw on my land before I bought it at close range. The first bullet never started expanding until the last piece of sheet metal and made an exit hole diameter maybe three times the entrance hole. Second bullet a shot segmented on the last piece when it exited. Just two holes and not three though. It made one big exit hole and a little dented pin hole a half inch away from the main exit. I wonder if it takes skin,meat, and bone to open up quicker?





    And I honestly know I wasn’t taking my time and holding as still as I could with this ammo and groups, i’m sure it would do even better off a rock solid rest.


    These definitely aren’t inside a half inch circle, but aren’t target ammo either.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Shooting groups are meaningless.

    Grab a 50yd benchrest target and see just how many 10's you can hit in a row, a row ='s 5 targets. The 10 ring is just under 1/4". Like I said in my 1st post try hitting 9's or better, the 9 ring is 1/2".

    In the rimfire br world 1/2" @ 50yds means you need to get better equipment/ammo, 9's just don't cut it.

    In the real world everyone with their favorite beater and either Walmart bulk pack or mini-mags can shoot 1/2" groups all day long when they do their part. Toss a 50yd br target up and start keeping score and things change real fast.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post

    In the real world everyone with their favorite beater and either Walmart bulk pack or mini-mags can shoot 1/2" groups all day long when they do their part. Toss a 50yd br target up and start keeping score and things change real fast.
    Add some real money in the form of bets and they become about as common as unicorns.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  16. #76
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    How far can I put all shots into a 1/2" circle? Are you kidding? I couldn't do it at 10 feet.

  17. #77
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    How far can I put all shots into a 1/2" circle? Are you kidding? I couldn't do it at 10 feet.
    Na, that's a different game.

    You try to hit that little dot (x-ring) at 10 meters.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    It's best to have shooting glasses, heavy shooting coats, sticky shooting gloves and shooting boots that lace up high enough to support your ankles when trying to hit that dot offhand with 1 of these.
    [IMG][/IMG]

  18. #78
    Boolit Buddy Wild Bill 7's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried Paco Kelly's accuracy tool on their 22 rf rifles? Inquiring minds want to know. LOL

  19. #79
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    I have tested and used a Paco Kelly Accurizer and a Waltz die for the last 14 years.

    As to increasing the precision [tightening groups] of 22/LR ammunition I've found neither tool will increase the precision of top end match 22LR. Use of the tool can be beneficial to precision with the medium priced "match" ammunition. It really improves the precision of some Winchester "Match" [White Box] I have and also gives a bit of improvement to CCIs "Green Box" match 22LR. The use of the tool will many times be most beneficial to bulk 22LR as it doesn't always reduce the size of most shots but most often eliminates the fliers. You have to do some experimenting on how much modification/swaging gives the best results. I don't use a mallet with the Paco Tool but prefer to use a press. I use the Lee hand press with the Waltz die.

    One of the biggest improvements for me is increasing the terminal effect. Using the "Nasty Nose" or HP tool can really increase the terminal effect on small game/vermin. You have to see or hear [the "whop" of the bullet hitting a small ground squirrel] to believe just how much it increases the terminal effect. CCI Blazer is my favorite to do either on. The soft plain lead bullet is devastating on squirrels and rabbits. I also re-HP most bulk copper coated 22LR HP HVs [Federals and Winchesters] swaging the bullet to a uniform .225 and opening the HP to the max just before the copper coating begins to split. They still feed fine out of the magazines in my bolt actions, my 10/22s, my M261 in my AR and in my semi-auto handguns.

    Keep in mind that either tool will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear because some of the bulk 22LR ammunition that was produced during the Obama shortage years is beyond help.

    Some modified [before and after] with the Paco Kelly Accurizer;

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC00127.JPE 
Views:	0 
Size:	28.3 KB 
ID:	255596

    Some CCI Blazer modified [before and after] with the Waltz die to HPs with small HP, medium HP and large HP;

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC00138.JPE 
Views:	2 
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ID:	255597
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 01-28-2020 at 10:34 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  20. #80
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    I have tested and used a Paco Kelly Accurizer and a Waltz die for the last 14 years.

    As to increasing the precision [tightening groups] of 22/LR ammunition I've found neither tool will increase the precision of top end match 22LR. Use of the tool can be beneficial to precision with the medium priced "match" ammunition. It really improves the precision of some Winchester "Match" [White Box] I have and also gives a bit of improvement to CCIs "Green Box" match 22LR. The use of the tool will many times be most beneficial to bulk 22LR as it doesn't always reduce the size of most shots but most often eliminates the fliers. You have to do some experimenting on how much modification/swaging gives the best results. I don't use a mallet with the Paco Tool but prefer to use a press. I use the Lee hand press with the Waltz die.

    One of the biggest improvements for me is increasing the terminal effect. Using the "Nasty Nose" or HP tool can really increase the terminal effect on small game/vermin. You have to see or hear [the "whop" of the bullet hitting a small ground squirrel] to believe just how much it increases the terminal effect. CCI Blazer is my favorite to do either on. The soft plain lead bullet is devastating on squirrels and rabbits. I also re-HP most bulk copper coated 22LR HP HVs [Federals and Winchesters] swaging the bullet to a uniform .225 and opening the HP to the max just before the copper coating begins to split. They still feed fine out of the magazines in my bolt actions, my 10/22s, my M261 in my AR and in my semi-auto handguns.

    Keep in mind that either tool will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear because some of the bulk 22LR ammunition that was produced during the Obama shortage years is beyond help.

    Some modified [before and after] with the Paco Kelly Accurizer;

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC00127.JPE 
Views:	0 
Size:	28.3 KB 
ID:	255596

    Some CCI Blazer modified [before and after] with the Waltz die to HPs with small HP, medium HP and large HP;

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC00138.JPE 
Views:	2 
Size:	29.0 KB 
ID:	255597
    I have been trying to reload match grade 22lr...Haven't tested but I am sure I am no where near there yet. Getting the bullet (powder coated then swaged) to good dimensions but still lots of refinement in other areas. Especially crimping. Question: Have you noticed a difference in the hardness of bullets?
    I started out making them harder (around 10 bhn) but since seeing this picture I have opted to go back to soft lead because of the obturation of base to rifling. Notice how the hollow base expanded the sides of the bullet to fill the rifling:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Obturated base.jpg 
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ID:	255601

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check