Quickload user request

[curioushooter]

I am trying to find a 357 Magnum load that runs the 358429 (~168 grains) at 1100 FPS out of a 4" revolver. Crimped in the groove, where it should be.

I would like to be able to do this ~30K PSI and with the fastest and cleanest powder available that also approaches 100% case fill.

I have been using 2400 and Blue Dot. Both seem wanting to me. 2400 works great but is dirty. Larger charges actually make it cleaner. It seems to like to be run hot. It's also slower than it needs to be. Blue Dot has pretty large deviation in velocity (probably due to lots of empty case space). Unique is a bit too fast and goes over my pressure target at that velocity. Tightgroup doesn't work for the same reason.

I was thinking about Vitavouri N105. It is bulkier and would probably fill that case better. I believe N105 is single base and therefore should be cleaner burning. The issue I am having is that Vitavouri does CIP pressure testing and I am convinced it runs as hot as old 357 mag data (45K CUP). Sometimes the starting loads for Vitavouri powders are greater than the max loads found in other manuals that cap at 35K PSI (like Hornady). This is with v110. I have not found any data for N105 that isn't provided by Vitavouri.

If Quickload has N105 I would really appreciate somebody plugging it in. Or if another powder is found that is potentially better I am all ears.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

How close are you with Unique? If you just need a hair more, try Herco. Power Pistol is right there, too.

[charlie b]

Why the concern with load density? I'd be more concerned with accuracy and the two do not always go hand in hand.

Blue Dot is a picky powder for me. For heavy loads it works just fine, but, anything less it does not burn consistently. 2400 has always been a good magnum round, and dirty.

It sounds like you want a bit of a reduced load so why not just use the data in the manuals? Find min/max and load half way in between? For pistols I like to use AA powders these days because they meter well.

[Petander]

I am trying to find a 357 Magnum load that runs the 358429 (~168 grains) at 1100 FPS out of a 4" revolver. Crimped in the groove, where it should be...

...

...I was thinking about Vitavouri N105. It is bulkier and would probably fill that case better. I believe N105 is single base and therefore should be cleaner burning. The issue I am having is that Vitavouri does CIP pressure testing and I am convinced it runs as hot as old 357 mag data (45K CUP). Sometimes the starting loads for Vitavouri powders are greater than the max loads found in other manuals that cap at 35K PSI (like Hornady). This is with v110. I have not found any data for N105 that isn't provided by Vitavouri.

Yes,Vihtavuori uses CIP. And those slower powders (N105,N110) are better for full case magnum loads,do not reduce them below minimum recommended. They work best around max.

We don't need Quick Load for data though:




You might like a starting load with 3N37 for example?

FWIW I shoot a Mihec 170 grainer @ 1300 fps with 1.0 gram of VV N110. I use the same load for 358429, crimped to the groove. Disclaimer etc.

[lar45]

Curious shooter, what is your loaded length? I don't have the 358429 to measure.
For the 357 mag with 358429 loaded to 1.553"(Lyman Manual lists 1.553") from a 4" barrel, Quickload simulated 5.5" barrel to account for the cylinder...
2400 - 10gns should give 1124fps @ 25.7ksi 91%, pressure is abit low and probably why it's burning dirty...
Blue Dot - 9gns should give 1152fps @ 28.6ksi 96%, pressure still abit low...
Herco - 6.5gns should give 1126fps @ 30.4ksi 90%,
Unique - 6gns should give 1118fps @ 31.3ksi 81%, pressure is looking better.
Bullseye - 5.5gns should give 1128fps @ 33.2ksi 67%

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th ed. lists the following.
357mag Lyman 358429 loaded to 1.553"
2400 - 9.7gn min 879 @ 15,900 CUP
2400 - 13.5gn max 1242 @ 41,100 CUP
Blue Dot - 8.3gn min 970 @ 18,400 CUP
Blue Dot - 10gn max 1233 @ 39,200 CUP
Herco - 5.6gn min 885 @ 17,900 CUP
Herco - 7.1gn max 1105 @ 39,000 CUP
Bullseye - 4.1gn min 813 @ 16,500 CUP
Bullseye - 6.1gn max 976 @ 39,300 CUP

The Bullseye numbers don't match up, but Quickload is just an estimate.
It looks like the Herco load might be a good option.

[curioushooter]

If you just need a hair more, try Herco. Power Pistol is right there, too.

Powerpistol, despite being slower than Unique, actually delivers lower velocities in 357. In 38 Special it is a very good powder for max loads.

Load density is the variable that I have found has the most predictive value in accuracy; in both rifles and handguns. Nearly full cases seem to have smaller spreads. There are exceptions. Tightgroup for example. Even in rifles it is very consistent with tiny charges in enormous cases. 3.1 grains of Tightgroup turns a 223 boltie into an outstanding squirrel gun.

I don't have Herco, and I've never bought it because Alliant lists it as a shotgun powder and not a handgun powder, or even a Shotgun/Handgun powder like Unique. Blue Dot is also listed as a shotgun powder but at least says that it can be used for Magnum Handgun loads.

I used to love Blue Dot in 357 until a batch I loaded up and didn't fire for over a year and took it out on bitterly cold day for my "Elmer Keith Memorial Shoot" that I have with my In-laws in January and a lot of those Blue Dot loads showed a scary looking overpressure primer. The 2400 and Unique loads were normal and performed as expected. Every since I've been leery of Blue Dot in handguns. I have a lot of the stuff because it was the powder I used to make 12 gauge slugs when I lived in Ohio. Now it basically sits.

3n37 I do not think will deliver the goods. I have 3n38 (same speed as Blue Dot according to Viavouri) which a tad slower and it doesn't get the velocity stated in that starting loads (which I suspect are over 30KPSI).

So far my solution has been to just run the 2400 hotter. Putting a full 13 grains in it is probably going over the 30K psi level but it cleans it up a little. The other solution is to use the 358429HP which weighs ~157 grains and I run it with 13.5 grains. That is a fine load by the way.

The reason why I am targeting this velocity is because I want to use it for certain action shooting disciplines that require 170 power factor. 1050 FPS with a 170 grain will do this. So will 1100 with a 158. But admittedly the load runs better if it's a little hotter with 2400. The Unique load just barely gets 1100 FPS with the 158 in my 4" M19.

OAL of a 358429 crimped in the groove in a 357 mag case is 1.650 +/- a few tho depending on how deep you like to crimp, what particular mold you have. I have two lyman 358429s and a MP Molds HP 358429 clone and they all are little different. When Miha gets to it I will have an 8-holer. As you can tell I like this bullet.

I was wondering if one of Hogdon's powders would work better like HS-6. I know 296/110 is too slow.

[Larry Gibson]

I don't use Quickload as I actually measure the psi via an Oehler m43 PBL. You might try 9.0 to 9.3 gr Blue Dot. 9.5 gr BD runs 30,000 psi with a 168 gr cast [same seating depth as the 358429]. Velocity should be close to 1100+ fps out of a 4" barreled revolver. I shot up a couple hundred of them in my Ruger SS with 6" barrel and velocity was right at 1200 fps. Burned clean and BD has become a favorite 357 powder under the 358156 (162 gr) for use in my Ruger SS.

[curioushooter]

Thanks for the information Larry. You didn't happen to test that Blue Dot during a 20 degree cold spell in Arizona did you?

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the information Larry. You didn't happen to test that Blue Dot during a 20 degree cold spell in Arizona did you?

No, no 20 degree cold spells here where I live in Arizona. However, I used to shoot I did shoot 10.5 gr BD under the 358156, a healthy dose of BD under 125 gr JHPs and 16 gr BD under a 210 gr cast in my 41 magnum when I lived in NE Oregon and had such temperatures. I never encountered the "problems" some claim with such loads in cold weather. I've also pressure tested quite a bit of BD loads in 32 H&R, 357 Magnum and 44 magnum and have not encountered any "pressure spikes" either.

[curioushooter]

What's funny is blue dot worked just fine with my 12 gauge slug loads in bitterly cold weather (Ohio's deer season starts the first Monday in December, or it did back then). I've only had problems in 357 mag, and to be honest I am not sure it was BD. It may be the primers. I've been using soft federal primers lately after about a decade of only using CCI. I may be simply that what looks scary with a Federal is not really scary. The charges/bullets were the same. It does seem that Federal 100 (small pistol) primers make a bit more "fire" than CCI 500 (small pistol). I am basing this off a test I did last summer where I put Federal 100, 200 (small pistol magnum) and CCI 500, 550 (small pistol magnum) to the test with Win 296 and 2009 vintage Alliant 2400 using identical charges, cases, revolvers and bullets. The only variable was the primer and the accumulated fouling and increased barrel/cylinder temp which was minimal. I let all the ammo stabilize to the outdoor temp (mid 80s, humid) for an hour. I got about 25-50 FPS greater velocities with the mag primers, which I attribute to greater pressures. XTP bullets seemed to experience more velocity change vs. cast. The Federal 100 velocities were slightly greater than the CCI 500 but slighly less than the CCI 550/Federal 200. So I reason it burns a little hotter. 296 is a ball powder and 2400 is finely granular; I should have done this test with a flake powder like BD or Unique but didn't. It could be that flake powders are a bit more sensitive to hotter primers than are ball or granular. If I had a Personal Ballistic lab I would actually know what's going on. How much does one of those cost if you don't mind me asking? I am figuring very expensive since the writers of most gun rags don't seem to even use them. This all said I still like 2400 a great deal in 357 Mag. It's just in this particular application of mine it seems to generate a bit more velocity and have a bit more charge than is necessary.