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Thread: Not To Be Played With

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryB View Post
    I load my AR to 556 levels and while my Savage Axis barrel can handle it(same barrel is used for much higher pressure loads than .223) I try to not use it unless it is an emergency.
    When measured with the same methodology the 5.56 and the .223 are basically the same pressures. The major difference is the early original 223 Rem had shorter throats that increased pressure when fired with 5.56.

    https://ultimatereloader.com/2018/08...cts-and-myths/

    Post 13 from Larry has actual comparative tests. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ato-Educate-me

    Both M193 and M855 use WC844 powder. It's H335 with flash inhibitor required by the military to reduce its signature. Having pulled thousands of these and replacing the bullets the charge weights are inline with .223 Data. I cant check pressure but I can check velocity. I don't see any measurable velocity difference between WC844 and H335.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-11-2020 at 04:16 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I thought those guns also had warnings in their instruction book about using such ammo? It's a sad thing, but as some one else pointed out, +P, and +P+ ammo shouldn't even exist. 45 LC, 45-70, and 32H&R may be fine in your Ruger, but will blow up your H&R, SAA, or Trapdoor.
    I remember in my CC class an octogenarian lady showed up with a LCR 38 and the some +P 158gr ammo. The first shot cut leaves out of the trees and took all the skin off the top of her right thumb!
    Does this mean that my NEF 30/30 A.I. is going to explode with my handloads????

    All owners manuals will recommend what to shoot from their firearms, and I have yet to see one that says "shoot any and all handloads that you want."

    My heart goes out to the young lady, and she's in for a lot of relearning if she wants to be a nurse. It was Providence that you were there!
    Tom
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  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy
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    This is why I went one route with my 38 spl, and 357 reloads.

    Brass 38 cases are loaded with wadcutters and 150 gr SWC only, mild to std loads only.

    Nickel 38 +P cases has the Lyman 358429 bullet loaded in them and is too long for the two 38 Spl revolvers I have

    Nickel 357 cases and the Lyman 358429 bullet works fine in the two 357 revolvers I have

    Sad to hear about the young shooter, hopes she recovers OK

    Was up at our local shooing range 2 years ago and the buzz was the new hole in the ceiling caused by a Leupold scope that went upwards when the 300 WSM rifle blew up.
    He walked away needing 5 stiches on his cheek from the extractor flying past his head.

    JW

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom W. View Post
    Does this mean that my NEF 30/30 A.I. is going to explode with my handloads????

    All owners manuals will recommend what to shoot from their firearms, and I have yet to see one that says "shoot any and all handloads that you want."

    My heart goes out to the young lady, and she's in for a lot of relearning if she wants to be a nurse. It was Providence that you were there!
    See my post 38

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    Gotcha, thanks!
    Tom
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    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  6. #46
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    correct answer. Its not loaded to any higher pressure then plus p. It is safe in any gun that is rated for plus p. Theres a GIANT difference in plus p (and +P+) then there is in 357 pressures. Keep in mind that if your gun is rated for 30k pressure its proofed at twice that. They are not going to make a modern 38 special, even one not rated for plus p that's going to blow up using plus p. They would get sewed out of business in a month. What happens when you use plus p or plus p plus ammo is you accelerate wear on your action parts and will end up with a rattle way before you blow it up. Ive been on here for 20 years and ive NEVER seen anyone condone loading 38s to 357 levels. Only thing close is some will load N frame smiths pretty stout but they sure specifiy its for an N frame which is the same frame as a 44 mag with a cylinder with thicker sidewalls then any 44 mag. They even called the 38/44s. I guess too here we take it for granted because its a casting site that this isn't your first rodeo. Not to many of us are loading with lee loaders and dippers and pulling loading data out of the air. Its no different then on here talking about large frame single action 45 colt rugers and redhawks loaded to higher pressures then factory ammo. If you don't have the intelligence or common sense to know the difference then you should find a different hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by jonp View Post
    +P+ has no real meaning but is used as a marketing ploy. Essentially from what I can tell it's pretty much "more than +P" with no other guidance. Why would you need that? I usually tell people to not try and make a gun do what it isn't designed for. If you want 357Mag velocity then get a 357Mag. Her experience is why I leave higher pressure pistol loads to my Blackhawks and don't freewheel where others have not gone. I just don't have the equipment to warn me of coming problems. In fairness to Buffalo Bore, they are quite clear about their ammunition and what it is designed to be shot in.

    Unfortunately in regards to the store clerk who sold her the ammo, it's not up to him to tell a customer what they can and can't buy but the days of knowledgeable clerks who would inquire what type of gun that was going into are coming to an end. He probably didn't know anymore than she did or less. I once went into a store to get a box of ammunition for a 308 742 Rem Woodsmaster. I told him what it was for and he said all he had was 308 Winchester and no way could I shoot that in a 308 Remington rifle with the other commando leaning on the counter shaking his head and laughing at the idiot kid who didn't know anything.

    I doubt there are any on this sight who would not ask these questions and then strongly discourage the buying of said ammunition as unsuitable for the intended gun or just outright refuse. It has made me strongly consider when I retire getting a job in a gun store. I don't know much about guns and ammo but I know enough to ask questions or find the answer if I don't know.

    As to pushing the pressure curve and why? Same reason you have gun store commando's that know everything and are ready to tell you.
    "The 556 is far superior to the 223. The 223 isn't good for anything"
    "You know how much velocity your going to lose (gain) with a 16in vs 18in barrel? Let me pontificate"
    "Everyone knows the wound cavity from a 44 Mag at 1473fps using X brand of ammo is x inches larger than 1389fps with that other stuff"
    "Cast for self defense or hunting? Just won't work, it will destroy your gun, what's wrong with you..blah blah blah"
    "45LC? That's no good for anything"
    "Hunt whitetail with a 30-30? Who would do something stupid like that, a 30-30 is way underpowered for doing that"

    I'm glad she will live but prayers for her and what happened. It's too bad. An honest mistake on her part most likely with little experience and just doing what someone recommended has changed her life forever. Kudo's to you for being on the spot and knowing what to do.

    It's also a reminder that when at a gun store or especially a range keep your eyes and ears open. If you see or hear something and it is not just silly but could be dangerous say and do something. Next time it could be you not thinking and doing something that gets stopped in time by someone else.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy ACC's Avatar
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    Well here is an update. The young ladies parents have taken her home to Amarillo for physical therapy. My wife and I visited her everyday she was in the hospital. I tried to show her the love God has for her, but I will have to see what happens.

    Her parents thanked me for all I did, and said they would stay in touch.

    God will work it out, I have no doubt.

    ACC

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Thanks for the update. It was mighty good of you to visit with her and offer her support. Hopefully she will recover and continue her career.

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy ACC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
    Thanks for the update. It was mighty good of you to visit with her and offer her support. Hopefully she will recover and continue her career.
    There is more to life than cast boolits. Not much but some. Besides if I call my self a man of God. I am to visit the sick.

    ACC

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACC View Post
    There is more to life than cast boolits. Not much but some. Besides if I call my self a man of God. I am to visit the sick.

    ACC
    I agree and I complement you, Sir. If you should hear from Her, please post about it. Thanks

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Thank you ACC.

  12. #52
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    This is sad to hear. I don't think the clerk is to blame though. How could he know? Buffalo Bore ammo is reputable brand after all.

    After a search on the Buffalo Bore website, the claim is that "this load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition" for all 38 special ammo that I see, even the 158 grain @ 1250 fps load.

    The real sad thing is she got hurt, and there is no clear lesson to be learned. Assuming she was using a gun that was supposed in good condition, Buffalo Bore ammo is supposed to be safe. Sometimes life just sucks.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    I am disturbed that the woman was injured but greatful to learn that immediate aid was rendered by a member. Thank you ACC.

    Years ago, a friend had purchased a Taurus M85, a clone of the S&W 36 chief's special. It blew up on standard pressure 38 SP loads, and he was not injured. Taurus honored it's lifetime warranty and replaced the M85. The cylinder split in 2 pieces and the top strap was bent. Taurus claimed the cylinder was likely defective based on their inspection of the pieces. He replaced the the Taurus with a S&W 66 and sold me the Taurus. I eventually replaced the grips with Hogue Rubber Monogrips. My typical plinking loads are 125 grains over 5 grains of unique, with a book load max of 5.3 at 16800 psi.

    I started loading the Lee 358-105 SWC and my wife loved it, also over the same 5 gr load of Unique. She won't give it back and tells me to 'get my own.' I also started loading the Lee 356-95 RF (mine drops at .358) over the same load of Unique, the pressure being below 14000 PSI. She likes that load a lot because it 'kills tin cans' and saves lead. She is not shy of recoil, her favorite weapon being a Ruger SBH with a 3 3/4" barrel using the Lee C429-240 SWC at 1250 FPS. She hasn't yet tried the Lee 429-208 WC loaded to 950 FPS. Should be a good paper puncher as well as serious hog medicine. You just can't get a broader meplat than a wad cutter
    Common sense Gun Safety . . .

    Is taught at the Range!

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    Strange thing about the newbies that all want super duper loads for a light gun is the recoil just about throws the gun from their hand,and after the first shot they are shooting so wild any burglar would be plain unlucky to even get grazed......Since I got old ,I dont even look sideways at newbies on the range .....they resent any approach from an old man.So I just move away.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Good read here on standard verse +P http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...31#post4804231
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  16. #56
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    Being in the nursing profession she'll have great help with her predicament. We have a member on this site that lost some finger parts and has a prosthesis to give him quality function of his hand. Saw on tv a youngin' with transplanted hands. Amazing.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check