Interesting how many small and underpowered cartridges have been used over the years

[wch]

The chamber pressure of the 22 LR cartridge is about 14,000 psi.
The chamber pressure of the 45 ACP cartridge is about 23,000 psi.
Never, ever, discount the destructive potential of the 22.

[frkelly74]

I took the CPL class recently and took my Ruger MKII for the shooting part of the class. I knew I could hit the paper with it and I knew it was reliable and it holds 10 rounds and I can get them all fired in about 2 to 3 seconds if I need to. To me that seems lethal enough. God forbid I ever need to test it.

[tazman]

aye, and there's the rub. if defending with a .22lr, that means a head shot is the better target, and probably/maybe it will stop a threat.

in a civilian immediate life threatening situation, the crux of the matter is the defense weapon operator and their ability to quickly retrieve said weapon and make an accurate shot in or about 2 seconds. choose a firearm and cartridge carefully, and commit to regular practice with it. then there's the matter of how one can defensive firearm practice. unfortunately, i do believe that most ranges will not allow tactical weapon handling, use, and varied firing situations.

The indoor ranges around here don't allow practicing drawing from a holster. There is a section of he outdoor range where I can do that.

If the requirements for defensive use are drawing and firing in 2 seconds, I guess me carrying a handgun for self defense is a waste of time.
I will need more time than that, so I have to be sneaky about it.

[Bigslug]

There has been a lot of marketing Kool Aid served to shooters over the decades that tries to declare everybody else's offerings as "small and underpowered".

Back in the Civil War, the Navy was using revolvers shooting .36 caliber round balls because they were only likely to be shooting people, whereas the Army went with .44 caliber round balls because they might frequently need to shoot horses.

But when you start looking at the numbers and gel tests, that .44 round ball, considered good to kill a horse back in the day, looks an awful lot like a modern 9mm duty round.

Sufficient penetration to facilitate critical nerve damage or blood loss - that's really all this is. Once you get past the 1980's fad in which everything had to have a "Big Expansion, Maximum Energy Transfer" hollow point, the .32 and .380 auto both go right back to being capable of doing just that - exactly like they were capable of doing back in 1910.

Lotta marketing hype, like I say, and in the context of old military rounds, nationalism and practical logistics. Once you start looking at it in the context of numbers needed to do the job, a lot of cartridges look pretty much the same, or are generating way more recoil than they need to.

[bmortell]

my main criticism of the new way of guns is all the people going large game hunting at 50yds distance in the woods/brush and they're like, ah yes, I need my 120gr designed for ultra low drag at 1000 yds launched at 3300fps that blows up on the first twig. that's my pet peev of overpowered actually being worse. a musket would actually be better provided you can hit the thing

[M-Tecs]

The current philosophy for self defense is to stop the bad behavior as soon as possible thus move to more potent calibers. Best non-defense example would be shooting deer with double lung shots using 62 steel core 5.56 in a 7 twist barrel. Most if not all will die but how many are recoverable?

[dverna]

We each have to decide what we wish to use. We each have different abilities, recoil sensitivity, situations, and we come in different sizes.

I can comfortably carry a Glock 22, my fiancé cannot. I have no problem racking the slide to clear a gun, my fiancé has problems.

I am in the more is better camp, as long as one can use the caliber proficiently. Even if a .22 will work, why not carry something larger if you can use it?

I loved the comment about not wanting to be hit with a BB. It does put things into perspective.

[elmacgyver0]

I hadn't heard about that one. It would certainly work.




I like them also. The biggest problem seems to be getting a quality firearm in those smaller calibers with the exception of the 22LR.

Right now you can get a used .32 acp Beretta Model 81 for about $200
You can get a lot of good deals right now on foreign police turn ins. Don't wait too long those deals won't last forever.

[Froogal]

While a .22 caliber is deadly enough, a .45 has much more potential of knocking down and stopping the bad guy.

[TNsailorman]

The problem these days about "bad guys" is that quite a few of them may be on drugs of one sort or another. I heard a police shooting instructor say at a pistol match one day that when drugs are involved, you had better be able to break down the bone structure of a perp because the drugs will isolate a lot of his pain and he could otherwise live just long enough to kill you, even after being hit hard and in the right spot. He preferred a 12 gauge shotgun with heavy buckshot loads in such instances and carried one with him even on "domestic" calls. I have never been in a kill or be killed situation in many a year and hope I never have to face that again, but I do keep a 12 gauge handy, but not in the "concealed carry" mode. The smallest pistol that I own is a .357 magnum S&W Model 13 with a 3" barrel. In my home it is my backup to a 12 gauge Remington 870 3" magnum and a 19"cyclinder barrel. james

[Thundarstick]

It's very difficult to get shooters to understand that failing a CNS hit, blood loss is the only thing that causes one to lose consciousness. Being shot can psychologically stop a fight as can breaking down skeletal support, but shock from blood loss shuts off the machine. A knife can kill you just as fast as a 357 if the rite things are cut.
Having worked in a hospital my whole life I've seen more deaths from the 22lr than everything else combined, the difference is rifle and shotgun wounds usually come DOA, while hand gun wounds die in route or at the hospital. Btw, most knife fatalities are DOA as well, and are stabbings, cuttings just piss off the ER doctor who spends hours stitching them back up!

I have no problem using a 22lr if needed, but my tactics would be very different. O, and I've personally seen the ole bullet skirt the skull trick, but it was a 38 sp. round nose.

[dverna]

Right now you can get a used .32 acp Beretta Model 81 for about $200
You can get a lot of good deals right now on foreign police turn ins. Don't wait too long those deals won't last forever.

It is not a deal if it is useless. My “little” pistol is a Kahr CW. $100 more and 9mm.

[FergusonTO35]

Interesting how many small and underpowered cartridges have been used over the years. Anything from 22 caliber and 30 caliber through 32 and 38 short.
Many of these were the favored tools of assassins and in some cases, the military. Many more for self defense.
Certainly these cartridges are, for the most part, obsolete and have been replaced by more powerful rounds, but they were still capable of taking life.
You can't disrespect an old weak(by today's standards) cartridge because it can still kill.
Just as knives and spears, bows and arrows are still capable weapons in the right hands.

If we consider those cartridges within their historical context, I think they were pretty good. For example, the.38 S&W offered respectable performance for a small top break. It was about the biggest cartridge you could get in a pocket gun for a long time.

[tazman]

I seem to remember that the 22lr from a snubbie used to be the favored assassin's gun from the old gangster era. Two bullets to the back of the head at touching distance. Very quiet and usually DRT.
I realize this is a special case but it worked for some.

Nowadays, it seems the preferred method is to drive past in a car and spray the neighborhood with bullets. Not a very precise method.

[Jtarm]

A funny thing is that the same people who say a .25 ACP is useless for defense won"t volunteer to be shot by one to prove it.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The most prolific handgun killer in history favored the .25 ACP.

Of course, he had a slight advantage in that all of his “opponents” were restrained while he placed a contact shot to the base of their skull.

I hope he and his boss Stalin are burning the the hottest part of hell.

[Michael J. Spangler]

A friend and mentor of mine runs security at a hospital. He was called down to see all kinds of things and keep an eye on people that might be a danger to others or themselves. One guy had attempted suicide with I believe a 32 ACP presses into the roof of his mouth. He was sitting upright on a stretcher in pain but wide awake and alert. He had a little 32 ACP bullet lodged into his pallet.

I also knew an RO that was meeting a guy at his farm to sell a 22 short Beretta. He jokingly said it was very accurate and pointed it at a cow about 150 yards away. When he pulled the trigger he said a second or two later the cow dropped.
He ran over and as he got there the cow stumbled to its feet. He said that it was hit behind the ear in just the right spot and knocked it out. He though he was going to have to buy the farmer a new cow.

I guess it’s all about shot placement right?

[bmortell]

i have no idea why people say shot placement is king. its implying that your choosing between a small weak gun that's easy to get shot placement. or a larger more powerful gun that's harder to aim. but that's not how it works, being bigger is better for everything except for concealability

[M-Tecs]

i have no idea why people say shot placement is king. its implying that your choosing between a small weak gun that's easy to get shot placement. or a larger more powerful gun that's harder to aim. but that's not how it works, being bigger is better for everything except for concealability

Because shot placement is king regardless if it's self defense or hunting. Marginal calibers are still effective when properly placed, however, a 50 Cal. BMG with a marginal hit or a miss doesn't get it done. A friend of mine lost part of a finger to a friendly fire 50 BMG. It did stop the suicide bomber he was struggling with before the bomber could detonate but he was unaware that he lost part of his finger until later. He did state that the impact from a 50 BMG is impressive when you are holding onto the target.

Same for hunting. When I was a kid a buddies dad had medical issues. They mostly lived of deer they shot on their own land. They lived on a prime river bottom that had lots of deer. They used a 22LR as they feed in the garden or the feed lot. They never lost any. Much later I hunted on land with a guy that used a 300 Weatherby. He lost lots due to poor shot placement.

Also larger firearms are generally easier to aim and shoot accurately. Heavy recoil does induct flinching for some and it magnified poor position. My 10 ounce Airweight is much harder to shoot accurately than my 686. Same for my 4 pound carbon fiber barreled 17 Mach II compared to the same setup with a steel bull barrel at double the weight.

[bmortell]

Also larger firearms are generally easier to aim and shoot accurately. My 10 ounce Airweight is much harder to shoot accurately than my 686

your saying the same thing I am.

how people use the shot placement argument is like saying theres no point of bringing a mustang to a race instead of your minivan because it makes no difference if you wreck in a ditch. that don't mean a minivan is a good racecar


if you said you carry your 10oz snub nose, and defend its usefullness with shot placement argument, saying a hit with this is better than a miss with a 50 bmg, you said yourself your 686 is more accurate and its more powerfull. so it makes no sense to use shot placement as the argument of why your carrying it. saying I like it because its smaller but im sacrificing power and accuracy is whats actually happening

[Petander]

Here in Finland we have had our share of school shootings and other similar craziness.

It's been a 22LR pistol used by a kid in most cases,causing many deaths. As a result,our gun laws are now so difficult I won't even start here. But the 22LR is being considered the worst killer of them all by many authorities.