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Thread: One foot in the machine shop.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    One foot in the machine shop.

    I was in Harbor Freight last month and got some coupons on the way out. I've noticed lately Central Machinery is a brand that is excluded on most of their 20% and 25% off coupons. One of the store coupons had no such restriction. I've had my eye on the small mill someone here recommended. Vehicles have absorbed most of my cash but last night I thought I'd try the coupon, just to see if it would work. Rejected. Maybe it's something in the word No. I sent an email and got one back today saying all coupons exclude Central Machinery but if you have questions call. So I did, they were open today, I explained the situation and he said "didn't I just talk to you". I offered the coupon, he said, no you're good, I can take care of that for you. I was stuck then, no way to back out, and there is a mill coming.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Good fo you...

  3. #3
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    Texas by God's Avatar
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    Chillin’ & millin’ soon. Sounds Fun.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    Mal,
    Curious which model did you get? I've been looking at Harbor Freight, Little Machines and Grizzly but haven't pulled the trigger... yet.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have the central machinery 7X12 lathe. a decent machine its accurate and easy to run but is a little underpowered and the dials read direct movement so in the cross feed and compound .001 movement is .002 on size.. The mills shouldn't have this issue though. While not as heavy and solid as a industrial machine, a lot of good work can be done on them. I believe my little lathe is listed at around 70 lbs so moving isn't a big problem.

    You will want a heavy table for the mill to set on. On locking casters it could be rolled out to use and out of the way when not being used.
    What are the spindle speeds on your machine? Table size and travel?

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    country gent,

    The spindle speed is 0-2500 rpm in 2 ranges. It's gear driven so maybe a reduction gear, can't quite see in the drawing. The table is 15-7/8 in. L X 3-11/16 W. The travel is not listed. The spindle has an R8 taper. My thought was to mount it on a rolling tool chest I already have. The combined weight should be over a thousand pounds.

    Thanks for the interest. My shop teacher was a Psychologist. I managed to find my was around sheet metal and welding but never got to lathes and mills. I have done light milling in emergencies with a drill press. Thanks for the feedback on the HF Lathe. I was looking at that as well but I may want something larger. You never really know until you take the first step.

    tbx-4

    The model number is 44991 and with the coupon I got it for $593 after taxes and shipping. I think they were being sneaky knowing I can't pass a good deal.
    Last edited by Mal Paso; 01-02-2020 at 11:36 AM.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    pworley1's Avatar
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    Now for the tooling. Congratulations.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Mal Paso,
    As I said I have the 7x12 mini lathe. Its accurate and fairly easy to use and learn. I was a tool maker for 35 years and Im not used to having to take .015-.020 roughing passes on a part. Im used to .100-.250 range roughing. Its just not what Im used to. But It does do the job. Im used to lathed with 3 hp-10hp motors on them and mills with 2 hp-25hp. The little lathe will do a lot of work and is great for polishing and fine work. The mill should be very handy and run end mills from 1/8"- 1/2" pretty well. with the speed range.

    I have seen them mounted on roll away tool boxes with good results, I would recommend a piece of 1" plywood between the Sheet metal top and machine. Some of those boxes have pretty light tops, another issue will be the height when mounted there. Most tool boxes tops are at a comfortable height for use the mill may be to high on it. Being able to get it out in the open will make cleaning up a lot easier. Also watch those mill chops they are sharp and pointy they stick in everything ( fingers hands arms). Last is do a few fun projects in wood is more forgiving and easier to work.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Interesting; I just ordered a mill, lathe and the goodies to make them work. Hoping to go into business on the side for myself. Arthritis is really slowing me down.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    For tooling and support of the small mills & lathes, try this place:

    https://littlemachineshop.com/default.php

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Does this machine come with a vice for the table?

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    For what it's worth, there's a huge model engineering show in central PA on the weekend of Jan 17-19. There's lots of vendors there selling new & used machinery & tooling. For those of you in the area, might be worthwhile to check it out.
    https://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    In addition to my BridgePort I also have one of those little mills and I still use it a LOT, it's just so darn handy! HOWEVER, be warned there are numerous mods that really should be done to this mill to make it truly usable otherwise it can be very frustrating to use. There are websites dedicated to these very popular mills that address the problems with them and they have many different fixes for them as devised by members of the site(s). First off these things are limp as the proverbial noodle and will flex and vibrate under load leading to milling errors and dulled end mills, Little Machine shop sells "fixes" for these problems but fortunately you can fix every problem that plagues these machines without resorting to buying the "fix kits". First off as CG suggested mount it solidly on a heavy table, a tool box would be a poor choice no matter how heavy if the metal top the mill would be sitting on is thin metal. Next the column needs to be braced with another piece of fairly heavy metal, just google how to do this and dozens of methods of doing so will pop up, it's fairly simple and most times cost is free with a bit of scrounging. Then there will be the dreaded (and well known) head drop problem that has several "kits" available for the fix ranging from various spring gimmicks to gas struts but all you need is a couple of small cheap pulleys from the local hardware and a piece of small diameter wire rope plus a few pieces of scrap to use for weights. I won't get into the "how to" for this but it's easy enough to find on the 'net. This counter weight set-up works waaay better than those expen$ive gas strut gimmicks, is easy to do and costs next to nothing. I fixed every single one of these well known problems with these little mills in one day and for less than $25 total so you don't need to buy that stuff from LMS! Once the mods are done that little outfit becomes a decent mill that will have never ending uses, like I said I have a BP in the same shop and I still use my little mill a lot because it's so handy and for some small jobs it can actually be better than the BP.

    BTW, another mod that's nice (and extremely so!) but not really necessary is to replace those NOISY and troublesome plastic drive gears with a belt and a couple of pulleys. While the gears work ok they are known to fail and are noisy while the belt drive is quite and makes for very smooth operation. These little mills should be thought of as project themselves as they come out of the box but with a little effort and a bit of scrounging all these mods are easy and can cost next to nothing but each one is DEFIANTLY worth the effort and makes these machines way more fun to use.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    Thanks oldred!

    Quote Originally Posted by largom View Post
    Does this machine come with a vice for the table?
    No vice or tooling just a drill chuck.

    I noticed the starter kits at the Little Machine Shop.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    The mill arrived today. The table travel is 9 1/8 x 4 1/4. It is a brushed motor with 2 speed gear drive. Not sure if the motor is DC but there is a power supply with an always on fan on the back of the mast. There are belt drive upgrades and a couple guys have built belt drive to treadmill motor mills. I see the issue with the mast tilt and will make a brace. I'll live with the torsion lift for now. The main thing is getting tooling. I could easily spend twice the price of the mill. I'll start with a set of collets and a mill or 2 now that I confirmed 7/16x20 threads on the collets. I have a dial indicator and holder to check square with the bed. I think that's the place to start.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    I want to say I wish you luck and lots of fun , I wanted a mini mill so many years , and after my divorce I bought myself a grizzly knee mill , not the biggest machine but bigger then what I had been dreaming of , and I will say tooling , and all the odds and ends are costly , but can be added . It was this site Castboolits that promoted my want for the mill , all the threads and so many members here with projects and advice and all the threads , fueled my desire , just wish I lived in the country and had more electrical as I would love to add a lathe , and yes I am looking and sooner or later there will be one . So in closing I say make what your heart wants to make with your lathe and enjoy the satisfaction that comes from doing something for yourself.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal Paso View Post
    The mill arrived today. The table travel is 9 1/8 x 4 1/4. It is a brushed motor with 2 speed gear drive. Not sure if the motor is DC but there is a power supply with an always on fan on the back of the mast. There are belt drive upgrades and a couple guys have built belt drive to treadmill motor mills. I see the issue with the mast tilt and will make a brace. I'll live with the torsion lift for now. The main thing is getting tooling. I could easily spend twice the price of the mill. I'll start with a set of collets and a mill or 2 now that I confirmed 7/16x20 threads on the collets. I have a dial indicator and holder to check square with the bed. I think that's the place to start.

    That motor is DC and it's a darn good motor, I certainly wouldn't consider changing mine for a treadmill motor. That mill has all the power you will need for any milling operation you're likely to be doing (if you run out of power using an end mill you are going way to big!) but large drills (much over a half inch) may be a problem. Besides if you use a more powerful motor that gear drive is going to fail so you would need to use the belt drive for sure, honestly that thing has all the power you need. For milling that head drop problem likely won't be noticeable but drilling is another story, when drilling you will be pulling down against the rack backlash and when the bit reaches the bottom of the work piece it will overcome the torsion system load and pull the head down allowing the bit to snag, this is more of a problem with larger drill bits but I have had it happen on bits so small they would break when the snag occurred. It's a really annoying problem and usually the first one addressed by new owners, there are various "cures" out there and while some guys seem to like the gas strut outfit sold by LMC I found it to be little better (if at all!) than the spring system my mill originally came with. Mine is an earlier model that used the coil spring and the fella I got it from had bought that expensive gas strut outfit but never got around to putting it on, I replaced my spring with it but found it to be very little improvement. All of these springs, struts, etc have a common problem, resistance changes with movement of the head (in spite of what some will tell you this is true of the gas strut also) but the weight and pulley system remains constant throughout the length of head travel. While you will still be pulling against the rack backlash using the weight system the weight will overcome the tendency for the bit to pull the head down, the amount of weight required makes for a comfortable pull on the handle and does not seem like a heavy load at all. The weight system just feels "right" unlike the springy and/or mushy feel of the other attempts to cure this problem using springs etc, and unlike the others it really works with any size drill bit this machine can handle! The weight/pulley system is the best way by far to fix this problem and it's easy to rig up but unlike the options sold online it costs next to nothing and works better to boot.


    For tooling go to Ebay and search "end mill lots", most times you will not find much but often you will find some real steals! Stay away from the imported end mills except for the Israeli and Korean stuff (most Chinese mills really are junk) and for the most part any used mills, lots of people trying to unload their junk on Ebay. However there are a few sellers who sell used end mills, usually in lots of 5 or ten, that were used in the plastics industry and while these are "used" they look brand new! For instance I bought twenty RobbJack 5/16" DLC carbide mills for what worked out to about $4 each, these end mills are over FIFTY bucks each at MSC and my $4 end mills looked brand new and came in their original plastic sleeves! There is a seller who has 5/16" FastCut brand double end coated high speed end mills in lots of ten for $21 with shipping and while these are listed as used they are used on one end only and that end is still sharp, the last batch I got looked brand new on both ends and at $2.10 each for a mill that lists for over $25 dollars each it is a steal!!! I am not sure where he gets these but it's likely some sort of industrial setting like the RobbJack carbides used with plastic, they are used for a certain length of time and then replaced regardless of condition. Also there is another seller who has 3/8" double end HSS end mills in lots of eight for about $23 with shipping, these too are "used" but you won't know it by looking at them, these are Korean made and while not the quality or as good a deal as the FastCut brand seller they are still a bargain for quality double end mills.

    I would recommend avoiding carbide tooling, especially until you get comfortable with this machine, since it is quite expensive and extremely easy to break. Carbide is extremely hard and heat resistant so it can be run much faster at greater feed rates and still stay sharp a lot longer than HSS but this is ONLY when done so under ideal conditions. Carbide is very brittle and chips quite easily thus it is very unforgiving of even the slightest mistake plus it needs a machine that provides a lot of rigidity, you might be able to use some very small carbide mills but even if you're careful about mistakes chatter due to lack of rigidity in that little mill will kill any carbide larger than about 3/16". Check out Ebay as you really can get some real deals there but it takes watching and waiting, I do this and I have hundreds of dollars worth of high quality tooling (a lot of it new!) that cost me pennies on the dollar.
    Last edited by oldred; 01-09-2020 at 08:15 AM.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    Just make darn sure,the rest of your shop "upgrades" along with new equipment. Ventilation,sanitation,lighting,safety,and fire protection. A bag of play sand,fire extinguisher,and some kitty litter is a good start. Good luck,keep a keen eye on clean,safe,fun.

  19. #19
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    That sounds like a lot of work and I am concerned about your blood pressure and well being. Just ship everything to me and then you can just take a nap......

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shopdog View Post
    Just make darn sure,the rest of your shop "upgrades" along with new equipment. Ventilation,sanitation,lighting,safety,and fire protection. A bag of play sand,fire extinguisher,and some kitty litter is a good start. Good luck,keep a keen eye on clean,safe,fun.
    Yep, agree with all of that and let's add watch those long sleeves and no gloves! If you have long hair then it MUST be tied back or covered, I personally know one fella from many years ago (back in 1968 but when doesn't matter) who was nearly killed and lost over half his scalp due to long hair getting tangled in spinning work. He just leaned in close to look at something and it happened in an instant, some of the guys working with him said it happened so fast they couldn't even see exactly what happened as he was leaning over one second and the next he was tangled up in the chuck! Also there are some really scary videos on youtube about this sort of thing, there is one very explicit video that shows a guy get his sleeve caught in a spinning lathe. It is mind boggling just how fast it happens and what it can do but miraculously in this instance the guy got away with only minor injuries (probably a fatally injured pride however) but the video is shocking nonetheless. There's no reason for these things to happen as all it takes is a bit of common sense and an awareness for safety, respect what these machines are capable of (even the small ones) because they absolutely have no remorse about what they do to someone and do it they will if a moment of inattention gives them a chance!
    Last edited by oldred; 01-09-2020 at 11:49 AM.
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

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