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Thread: automating my Mark IV Ballisti-cast bullet caster need input.

  1. #1
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    automating my Mark IV Ballisti-cast bullet caster need input.

    <ebay link removed as they're forbidden>

    Was wondering if this stepper motor would work. I have no experience with stepper motors but my thought was to remove the hand operated crank on the caster and install a sprocket with chain to a sprocket on the stepper motor as a method of revolving the main assembly. Program it to rotate after the lead was poured and solenoid for lead pour was off rotate about 30 degrees and pause followed by a revolution to TDC where lead pour would again start.

    The stepper control would be tied into a computer.
    Last edited by Mr_Sheesh; 02-16-2020 at 06:54 AM. Reason: ebay link removed

  2. #2
    Boolit Bub
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    Would need to know the torque required to crank the caster to answer.

    Do you have a decent site for the machine?


    The stepper has a holding torque of 6.6 ft-lbs and the AD has no torque/speed graphs, assume 60% usable at 200 rpm. So whatever torque needed is going to need to be delivered by a 4ft-lb source.
    IE: 40 ft-lb operating force would require a 10-1 gearing to work (at a 200 RPM stepper speed that would be a 3 second minimum cycle time)

  3. #3
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    I have a large metal table it could be bolted to. At the most it would require about 10ft lb to operate my guess. I would have to unbolt it from the bench and get an allen wrench socket to put in the torque wrench to take an accurate measurement. The bolt in the end of the shaft is an Allen head. Worst case would be 15ft lbs to operate with the most torque to cut the sprew.

  4. #4
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    Anyone? I really need some help here as how to go with the motor selection.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Why a stepper motor?

    Can you not just use a regular gear motor and a crank on the shaft to turn the rotation into a linear movement?


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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Contacting sprew plate

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    Rotating mass at TDC

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    Remove handle and install sprocket in place of it.

    Maybe I'm trying to complicate things.

    Mold at TDC receives lead and pauses for lead to harden a little before moving on. Rotation continues and sprue plate contacts rod which shears the sprue and the sprue plate moves and drops sprue in container at front of machine. Rotation continues and bullets leave mold and rotation continues until the mold arrives at TDC where it contacts a micro switch to shut off rotation timer. Motor stops and lead pour cycle begins by activation of a solenoid attached to the lead pour lever to fill mold when this timed action quits the motor again is started.

    My conception which may need to be reviewed.

    My line of thinking tells me a need some type of gear reduction motor whose rate/RPM can be controlled and I need a solenoid controlled by a timed relay to activate the lead valve and possibly more switches and control.

    If I had purchased a Magma I wouldn't be in this boat. As you can see by the pictures the Ballisti-cast is much different.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-01-2020 at 04:10 PM.

  7. #7
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    Mine is a two mold version of the MARK X

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPEs9Tinrh4

  8. #8
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    You can see the switch on the back of the arm in the video above. When it is depressed it activates a time delay relay. I used a 10 turn pot for precision adjustment of time delay. The relay is double pole double throw. So, when it’s triggered one leg cuts power to the motor, stopping it, while the other leg applies power to the solenoid pulling the arm to pour lead.

    With a rotating linkage like you have you could use a sprocket or gear and just put posts off it to activate your control switch.

    Kind of like my autoreset plate racks.



    Except instead of opening the circuit, you trigger a time delay relay that does and simultaneously pours l lead. You would need two posts for two molds, 4 for 4, etc.
    Last edited by jmorris; 01-01-2020 at 05:52 PM.

  9. #9
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    I drew up a schematic that should provide the control I need. I will try to post it.
    I also added a master sw for lead shutoff , master motor off, secondary control voltage off. I addition I have shown the cycle switch for TDC of the rotating body.

    control caster machine.pdf

    I tried to change it and it keeps reverting back. It should open up in your PDF reader you can right click on it and rotate it clockwise so it is viewable.


    I'm trying to keep the project cost down thus the use of a 24VDC power supply to run the relay control voltage. Used solenoid. Motor yet to me found. Suggestions appreciated. It takes about 10ft lbs to rotate the assemble when you contact the sprue plate. Need a speed control setup I believe because I don't think I can guess the correct RPMS needed. Thinking about a Bodine 32Y5BEPM-5F and a Bodine 835 speed control box.

    Open to suggestions.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 08:27 AM.

  10. #10
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    How the control works

    Jmorris got me motivated enough that I sat down and drew up the control for my Ballisti-cast Mark IV bullet caster. Using a relay and relay socket I happen to have on hand I made it as simple as my flawed mind could. My Ballisti-cast has a rotating mass (for lack of better terminology) that has two mold bolted to. You basically hit the lead pour to fill the molds and then pull the arm down and that rotates the center mass. At about 120 degrees from TDC the sprue plate contacts an arm that moves the sprue plate and the sprue falls into a container and as the rotation continues the bullets fall down a chute into a catch basin to cool. You follow thru and the rotating mass is now at the top for mold #2 cycle.

    My control would have a start switch at TDC of the rotational mass weather in the machine or contacting the rotating mass sprocket. Once the switch is closed the timed relay starts and the rotational motor stops (DPDT relay). The part “A” of the switch controls the solenoid for lead pour. The part “B” opens up the motor control leg (Hot to the motor.) At top the lead pour starts and is controlled by the potentiometer in the control a 20K pot which will be switched out to a 10 turn or more precision sealed pot.

    Proofs so far…..

    We have the following conditions….

    We have a switch SW 1 that is a lead pour switch ( turns off the hot going to the pin #1 on the relay) a safety switch in a manor which allows an emergency turn off if needed or simply non allowance of the lead pour function for testing or whatever.

    We have a control switch #4 in the hot leg of the primary of the transformer that supplies the power for the relays control. If it is on there is power at the primary of the transformer.

    We have control switch #3 which provides a master on and off function for the motor.

    We have the “RUN SWITCH” switch #2 which is the cycle switch for the machine. When the switch is on the motor turns off, the timed lead pour occurs the mold is filled and the motor energizes upon completion of the lead cycle.

    The switches SW 1, SW3, SW 4 are in fact safeties or means of controlling the operation of the machine. They allow me to turn off the motor, safety turn off for the solenoid, and control voltage to the primary of the transformer (relay power.)

    I could incorporate some type of light to come on signaling the positive conditions of each control switch if desired.

    Why did I complicate the control with additional switches when I could have gone the bare necessity route and simply pulled the plug on the unit? The word safety comes to mind. In my years of working in factories and in the world of audio and video I’ve discovered thru the act of running machines that control does fail sooner of later. So what some might consider to be excess I consider to be barely functional. Now I could incorporate a number of different sensors but that would serve to complicate things. This is the simplest that my geriatric mind could conceive.

    I'm open to comments and suggestions.

    Thanks

    I could incorporate control in the PID on the Ballisti-cast to not allow operation until the lead reached an allowable temp level. Is that over-complicating things?
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 08:30 AM.

  11. #11
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    Additional

    My relay a Potter & Brumfield is a precision timed relay with the capability to alter the function conditions. My instance has me choosing the ( interval on ) setting which means when voltage is supplied to the control pins 2 &7 the relay starts its cycle as determined by the pots position. The capabilities for timing are .1-1 sec, 1-10seconds, 10-100 seconds with several other settings up to 100 minutes.

    Solenoid is a Dormeyer PN 2005-M2 which I also have on hand.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 09:08 AM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    On mine I made a pour timer and another “cool” timer where I could pause the machine with the mold open, for an adjustable amount of time if it were to get too hot in operation.

    One latching on/off so the pot could get to temperature before the motor and solenoid start doing their thing, another “cycle” button so the motor would run but not pour lead and one additional switch where I could reverse the motor, if something were to occur where I needed to back the mechanism up.

    I used some fairly small gear motors for mine and no key way on the arm that runs everything so the motors would stall or the arm would slip on the shaft before it could mangle any of the machines parts. I would either have some fail safes like that or current limiting in the circuit, you don’t want your machine capable of hurting itself.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph.../#post-1944416
    Last edited by jmorris; 01-02-2020 at 09:57 AM.

  13. #13
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    I have my PID control setup to automatically start the fan when I reach a specific temperature. I think I will incorporate a fail safe into the control that simply will lock out motor and lead pour operation until the lead is at a specific temperature. The factory blower aids to cool the mold in the 6 o clock position up to TDC.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 11:04 AM.

  14. #14
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    Any ideas on motor choice? I was leaning toward the bodine gear reduction motor with speed control but I don't know if I should drive it direct or use a sprocket on the motor which drives a chain which turns a sprocket on the rotational mass shaft. Either type would allow for speed adjustment or reversal with the addition of a switch to the circuit.

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    I cannot remember the name of the joint for the direct drive setup I do remember their being a mating piece on the shaft being driven and a rubber piece between them.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 10:17 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    On mine I made a pour timer and another “cool” timer where I could pause the machine with the mold open, for an adjustable amount of time if it were to get too hot in operation.

    One latching on/off so the pot could get to temperature before the motor and solenoid start doing their thing, another “cycle” button so the motor would run but not pour lead and one additional switch where I could reverse the motor, if something were to occur where I needed to back the mechanism up.

    I used some fairly small gear motors for mine and no key way on the arm that runs everything so the motors would stall or the arm would slip on the shaft before it could mangle any of the machines parts. I would either have some fail safes like that or current limiting in the circuit, you don’t want your machine capable of hurting itself.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph.../#post-1944416
    What is the best way of sizing the motor? I could use a allen socket with my torque wrench and get a full idea on torque requirements. I would assume once the torque desired is know then a simple calculation of in lbs to ft lbs conversion?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    That should do it, might let the sprue cool a bit more than normal so you can have a “worst case” number to go from. Would also be interesting how much force requirements go up to shear the sprue in various conditions.

    I just started out with the smallest one I had on hand that I though would work and it did.

    The coupling above on the right is a Lovejoy coupling the part between the two is the “spider” (they can be had in various materials depending of torque requirements).

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    That should do it, might let the sprue cool a bit more than normal so you can have a “worst case” number to go from. Would also be interesting how much force requirements go up to shear the sprue in various conditions.

    I just started out with the smallest one I had on hand that I though would work and it did.

    The coupling above on the right is a Lovejoy coupling the part between the two is the “spider” (they can be had in various materials depending of torque requirements).
    I'm going to run out and pick up a grade 8 bolt to torque down and take a no lead on the sprue plate measurement. My smallest gear reduction motors are only rated at 42in lb which equates to probably 3.5ft lbs.
    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 01:43 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Don’t forget any further reduction you might add after the motor. Thats how that power window motor in #8 can lift all that steel, the multiplier after the gear motor, that is.

  19. #19
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    Well, took some measurements after taking a good hard look at the machine. First I will be unable to reverse the motor because at the bottom of the cycle the drum pieces are machined to provide an extremely fast open time and serve to jar the mold upon opening. The machine took less than 10ft lbs to rotate without lead in the mold or on top of the sprue plate. Upon investigation I discovered that the pin the sprue plate contacts to open the plate was way far out of adjustment. I readjusted it and took more measurement and this dropped the non-loaded operational force to around 3 ft lbs at the most. Put lead in the mold and rotated to shear the sprue and the force didn't change but very little. Went thru several more cycles allowing the lead to harden to the point of extreme difficulty and the worst case force needed was about 8-9ft lbs with an average of around 5ft lbs.

    I had to rotate the camera in order to get in close for a good shot. The machined portion of the drum that the roller just passed is at 6:00 position. Its impossible to reverse and back up once past this point.
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    Last edited by 6bg6ga; 01-02-2020 at 02:14 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    Don’t forget any further reduction you might add after the motor. Thats how that power window motor in #8 can lift all that steel, the multiplier after the gear motor, that is.
    Got ya. I'm on the fence as to how to run it. I can gear it down or run it direct. So, if I understand you correctly gearing it down will increase my torque ability allowing me to use a small motor to do the same task. So if I change the gearing so the driven shaft rotates 1/2 of the one driving it would it be like my 42 lb in X2 ?

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check