Rossi 92 in 44-40 lsome basic questions

[robg]

used pistol primers not rifle .fun cartridge to load for if youre gentle with the cases.

[BCRider]

Dekker, I've been loading a fair bit of .44-40 over the last couple of years. Most of it in black powder or more recently in one of the substitutes called Jim Shockey's Yukon Gold.

With proper black the stock grooves on the smokeless bullets I've been buying were simply no where near juicy enough. So it's a good thing you're getting a big lube groove mold. In my case the fouling packed in so badly that the rounds could not even hit the big cowboy action targets ( about 40cm square) with any accuracy by the end of 60 rounds. Mind you I didn't try casting my own and using a proper black powder lube like many here are doing. The Yukon Gold I'm using now is a lot more tolerant.... Either way though big fat lube grooves with proper black is a good thing.

The two Italian replica rifles and Miroku 1873 Winchester I've got are all set up for the .427" size bullets. I don't know anyone here with a Rossi in .44-40 so I can't check with them for you about size. Sorry.

On reloading I read a lot about how the .44-40 cases were so fragile. But frankly I have not really found it to be an issue. I'm reloading with Lee dies in a Dillon 550b. And I suspect part of why I don't have an issue is that the four die stations lets me get away with seating on one die and crimping with a second die where a three position progressive requires seating and crimping in one position. Of course if you are loading on a single stage then you can set the die to seat and then do a second pass where you set it to crimp. I also suspect that a reason I get along so well with these supposedly "fragile" casings is that I lube the cases before I resize and decap them. Not much mind you. I lay out a cookie sheet worth of cases on their sides and give the tray a light 2 second spray of an aerosol can of casing lube. It only hits one side but as the cases are handled and go through the sizing die the lube spreads around and it only takes a very little bit to let them glide in and out with very little force. And that may be another reason I don't have any problem. Some say that the carbide rings in the sizing dies don't need lube. And that is very true. But that doesn't mean that the casings themselves don't need lube. And if a light hint of lube like this lets the brass move through the die with very little resistance then that might be part of why I don't have issues with cases that collapse on me.

On the idea of not sizing the cases I'd be a bit worried that the rebound after the recoil could see bullets slide out of the mouth of the casing if there is no neck tension at all. And I know that fired cases on my guns let the bullets literally fall into the case and back out. So sizing is a must for me.

My other cowboy action rifle is a Rossi in .357Mag. Even having the nice Uberti and Winchester replicas that Rossi is still one of my favorites. Work on finding options for the springs and you'll love it too. I got my Rossi about 12 years ago now. I do a bit of home gunsmithing and I slicked mine up so it runs better than me. I've also slicked up a few more over the years.

The most recent two I did for close friends were already doctored up in all the most important spots. So really the only things you need to find to slick the gun up and make it run like a champ is the three main springs and to remove and smooth the back side of the extractor spring. There are some really good videos on disassembly and reassembly on You Tube to follow. And while it's apart the first time you can remove any burrs on the bolt and locking bars and other parts and measure the springs. The two you really want to change are the ejector spring and the main spring. They are both WAY too strong and fight you badly when cycling the lever. The spring kits also come with a lighter spring for the snap pin in the lever. But unless you get into competitive speed shooting with the rifle you don't need to change that one. The big two improvements though are the main and ejector springs.

On the extractor the back side (lower hidden side when seen on the bolt) on all the rifles I've worked on is quite roughly shaped with side to side machining marks. This is a spring that snaps and having crossways roughness on the side under tension is never a good thing. Removing enough to erase that cross pattern will do a lot to ensure that the extractor never fatigues and cracks on you. While you're at it make sure it isn't curved and rubs hard on the sides of the slot in the bolt.

Two big fails I've seen on the half dozen Rossis I've worked on are my own rear sight that was badly crooked and needed the spring to be twisted back flat. And on a friend's 92 a very badly misshapen loading gate that is causing him a lot of issues during loading and shooting where it lets the round kick over to the side and jam. The other 4 were all just lovely overall other than the slicking up steps I had to do on the earlier three rifles.

[Savvy Jack]

The two Italian replica rifles and Miroku 1873 Winchester I've got are all set up for the .427" size bullets.

On reloading I read a lot about how the .44-40 cases were so fragile. But frankly I have not really found it to be an issue. I'm reloading with Lee dies in a Dillon 550b. And I suspect part of why I don't have an issue is that the four die stations lets me get away with seating on one die and crimping with a second die where a three position progressive requires seating and crimping in one position. Of course if you are loading on a single stage then you can set the die to seat and then do a second pass where you set it to crimp. I also suspect that a reason I get along so well with these supposedly "fragile" casings is that I lube the cases before I resize and decap them. Not much mind you. I lay out a cookie sheet worth of cases on their sides and give the tray a light 2 second spray of an aerosol can of casing lube. It only hits one side but as the cases are handled and go through the sizing die the lube spreads around and it only takes a very little bit to let them glide in and out with very little force. And that may be another reason I don't have any problem. Some say that the carbide rings in the sizing dies don't need lube. And that is very true. But that doesn't mean that the casings themselves don't need lube. And if a light hint of lube like this lets the brass move through the die with very little resistance then that might be part of why I don't have issues with cases that collapse on me.

On the idea of not sizing the cases I'd be a bit worried that the rebound after the recoil could see bullets slide out of the mouth of the casing if there is no neck tension at all. And I know that fired cases on my guns let the bullets literally fall into the case and back out. So sizing is a must for me.

BCRider,

Great reply and thanks for sharing.

One reason folks may not have any issues with case crumpling is because they are using .427 bullets. Folks typically crunch a case when trying to cram a .430 bullet into a case that has been sized for .427 bullets and or without properly bellowing the case mouth. Another reason is that when they seat a bullet with a deep crimp groove, the bullet is seated too deep and the case mouth hits the top of the groove flange and has nowhere to go but crumple before the crimp is completed. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...crumpled-cases

Neck retention/good crimping is important when loading .427 bullets but when loading .429/.430 bullets from a .429 chamber, it's not that bad. Resizing efficiency depends on the chamber dimensions combined with the bullet diameter used. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...file-crimp-die

When seating/crimping in the same step, it is important to set the seating depth for the longest case length one will be loading. If it is set for the shortest case, when the longest case is loaded, folks are going to have problems.

Over working they brass decreases case life so it can be important to "resize" to match the chamber dimensions. If a rifle has a tad larger chamber and .429 bore, full resizing with tight dies and only using .427 bullets is way over working the brass. At one time I had a rifle with an over sized chamber and had to cut down a 44 magnum resizing die so it would only resize the neck...of coarse they would not fit in tighter revolver chambers.

It can get complicated sometimes.

[dekker01]

Thanks for all the helpfull information everybody! Much appriciated.

[garandsrus]

Here’s a mold maker in Europe who turns out very nice molds at a good price. It may save you some import hassles also. https://www.mp-molds.com/

[dekker01]

I just received the mould from arsenalmolds, it was very well packaged. I am looking forward to use it!
It is the 432-180 rf sized to 429 (as i requested).

[rondog]

I'd just like to know how you "ordered" a new Rossi in .44-40? I thought they weren't making anything in .44-40, and I've sure never heard you could "order" a rifle from them - what am I missing here?

[dekker01]

https://www.frankonia.de/rossi/shop.html

As I live in europe, there are some hoops I have to jump through, but ordering is not a problem. Just 8 months waiting for delivery.

[Walks]

I hear about .44-40 cases getting crushed all the time.
The other Cowboy Shooters at My old club complained about it all the time.

I consider myself Very Very Fortunate to have a set of early Lyman All-American dies from the 1960's. The sizer reduces the case enough too chamber in My old 1923 Colt and the M-Die expands the case mouth/body just enough to let a .428dia #42798 bullet fit easily, yet grip the case well enough to crimp & hold a .428 bullet in place.
Never had a bullet pushed back into the case when using those dies.
I tried a Lee FCD die. It worked okay, but I started getting neck & mouth splits after just two loadings.

Have tried the Lee #429-200-RF, worked fine for me. As did the 2 RCBS 200CM & 210RF molds.
Never got around to the Lyman Cowboy mold. Will someday maybe

Oh, I have a 1892SRC in .44WCF, and A Rossi 92 copy Oct bbl 24" Rifle.
My Rossi Rifle and 2 UBERTI 1873 copies are all close to 25yrs old or even past 30yrs.

I think Rossi did a better job on My 92 then the .44Mag, .357Mag, and .45Colt that most Cowboy Shooters chose.

Maybe it depends on the Wholesaler/ Distributor. Mine was EMF

[Savvy Jack]

I hear about .44-40 cases getting crushed all the time.
The other Cowboy Shooters at My old club complained about it all the time.

That's because those guy try to cram a .430 bullet into a case sized for .429 without a proper bellow or trying to load handload fast
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...crumpled-cases

I consider myself Very Very Fortunate to have a set of early Lyman All-American dies from the 1960's. The sizer reduces the case enough too chamber in My old 1923 Colt and the M-Die expands the case mouth/body just enough to let a .428dia #42798 bullet fit easily, yet grip the case well enough to crimp & hold a .428 bullet in place.
Never had a bullet pushed back into the case when using those dies.

BINGO, I have been preaching that for a few years now. For .426/.427 bullets, use the Lee dies. For .428/.429 bullets, use the RCBS "Cowboy" dies.
Use the 44-40 "M" die as you stated but if using .430's, use the 44 Magnum "M" expander plug.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...file-crimp-die

I tried a Lee FCD die. It worked okay, but I started getting neck & mouth splits after just two loadings.

The 44-40 LFCD is designed to crimp a .427 bullet. Using this die on .429 and especially .430 bullets, it fully crimps BEFORE the collets fully close allowing a small portion of the case mouth to squeeze in between the collets causing a "bump" and has been the weak area on cases that have split for me. Even when used on smaller diameter bullets, a harsh crimp leaves a "crease" in the case mouth also weakening the case mouth to allow splits.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...file-crimp-die

Have tried the Lee #429-200-RF, worked fine for me. As did the 2 RCBS 200CM & 210RF molds.
Never got around to the Lyman Cowboy mold. Will someday maybe

The most popular 200gr 44-40 hard cast bullet is commercially made and sold by many "dealers". The commercial mold is the Magma from Magma Engineering. Popular manufactures are Oregon Trail's Laser Cast, Hunter's Supply and most of Midway USA's are from a "Magma" mold.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/bullet-molds
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...n-bullet-molds

Several hard core 44-40 shooters have sent in designs to Accurate Mold and are great cast bullets. By far the absolute best for black powder is John Kort's 43-215C


https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

[pietro]

I like the stuff that Steve Guns sells for the Rossi, but they are made from Unobtanium if you live outside the US

Steve offers a DVD on slicking up a Rossi, for those folks who can & will do it themselves.

I would suggest you contact Steve, as he might be able to ship the DVD to you (especially if you offer to pay for the shipping).

Alternately, there might be somebody on the forum who's purchased the DVD from Steve, and be willing to burn a copy to send you.

IDK if his DVD is available as a download.



.

[djryan13]

When did Rossi stop selling 44-40? I bought one just a few years ago.

[44WCFKID]

As others have stated, the chamber is the deal breaker. My Uberti rifles slug .429 bore, .430 groove. they wont chamber though so I use .428 cast lead, I can hit 100 yard turkey steel plates off hand with full case black powder loads, so I'd say accuracy is fine withe .428's. In thousands of rounds I've only crushed 3-4 cases using either Lee single stage or a Dillon Square Deal. The crimp has to be Just right or it will bulge the case. Approach it conservatively and you'll be fine. I've heard the Lee Factory Crimp die on the 44WCF works great but I've never needed to change.

[Savvy Jack]

As others have stated, the chamber is the deal breaker. My Uberti rifles slug .429 bore, .430 groove. they wont chamber though so I use .428 cast lead, I can hit 100 yard turkey steel plates off hand with full case black powder loads, so I'd say accuracy is fine withe .428's. In thousands of rounds I've only crushed 3-4 cases using either Lee single stage or a Dillon Square Deal. The crimp has to be Just right or it will bulge the case. Approach it conservatively and you'll be fine. I've heard the Lee Factory Crimp die on the 44WCF works great but I've never needed to change.

As most of us know but sometimes forget, if tight chambers, one must use thin winchester brass if trying to use large diameter bullets, remington brass is thickest and works best with small diameter bullets. Starline brass in the middle for thickness. Also when roll crimping, sometimes the brass getrs a slight bulge below the roll and this can be solved by using a Redding Profile die if ussing 44-40 profile bullets.

[Outpost75]

Another solution for .44-40 rifles having tight chamber necks, but a large groove diameter is the Accurate 43-200QL helled bullet. This has an oversized stop ring above the crimp groove which can be sized to fit the chamber throat or barrel groove diameter, but the driving bands are .428" and are unaffected by sizing. The QL version has a larger lube groove for BP use, whereas the regular Q has a smaller lube groove for cowboy smokeless powder application. VERY accurate bullet in the Microgroove Marlin.

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