Shiloh or C Sharps

[montana_charlie]

and with modern hyper-accurate slug ammunition you could actually use a vernier sight and extend your range a few hundred yards.

I guess I'm way behind the times. Just how accurate are those hyper-accurate shotgun slug rounds?

I'm curious because I would probably consider it a criminal act to take a shot at a game animal that was 'a few hundred yards' away...and that would be with a Sharps rifle.
CM

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have just two words for c sharps...trash truck!

Since the owner has had the business and building for sale for a couple years now, it would greatly concern me what the economic situation is there. The two businesses are about a 1/4 mile apart. The Shiloh parking lot is full, and there are always lots of visitors every time I have been there. Schofstalls place usually has one or maybe two cars in the lot at most. I expect the Bryants will be around for the time we have left before yo'bammy outlaws all firearms.

Rich

[Don McDowell]

I have just two words for c sharps...trash truck!

Since the owner has had the business and building for sale for a couple years now, it would greatly concern me what the economic situation is there. The two businesses are about a 1/4 mile apart. The Shiloh parking lot is full, and there are always lots of visitors every time I have been there. Schofstalls place usually has one or maybe two cars in the lot at most. I expect the Bryants will be around for the time we have left before yo'bammy outlaws all firearms.

Rich

So does this trash truck business come from some personal experience, or just shooting the breeze?

Schoftstall is retirement age and would like to do so, and its a bit hard to retire if you're still running a business. I'ld suppose if they wanted to Bryants could buy CSA out, and put the outfit back together again like it was 30 some odd years ago. But I doubt if willing buyers are found that want to stick their necks out on small semicustom rifle building outfits.
The whole thing boils down to both outfits turn out excellent rifles,match winning capable right out of the box. Just need to take your pick on which a person wants to buy.
There's several folks around that can't decide and therefore have more than one of each.

[EDK]

It's a nice trip from Buffalo WY to Big Timber...200 miles or so. Pretty country, Interstate highway all the way and plenty of places to stop for a meal along the way. One of my favorite routes to go to Quigley via Big Timber. ( I always stop at the Fetterman site; it's like visiting the Alamo.)

Go up and look at the guns...and talk to the people in the shop. I enjoyed the tour at SHILOH...and the fact I DID NOT see anyone who looked unhappy with his job. You don't want a "monday morning" or "friday afternoon" gun from anyone....especially at the prices these guns bring...and they are worth every penny you pay for them!

My only thing close to a complaint was I thought the AA finish on my 50/90 SHILOH needed some more coats of tung oil or whatever they use. Maybe I'm just to used to modern finishes like on my MARLIN Cowboy rifles.

PS if you're stag-grips.com, the grips I got in 2007 for the twin BISLEY VAQUEROS were/are perfect. Hope I got a few yankee dollars for another set (or two) next June when I head for Quigley.

[Bullshop]

How many times has Shiloh sold since John has been across the road?
BIC/BS

[appleseedgunsmith]

hyper accurate= any slug load capable of holding 2-3 MOA and some do even better. Yes you CAN take shots past a few hundred yards. you have to be COMPETENT with your rifle and be CONFIDENT of it and the load. not all hunters are sportsman first. some actually do it to put meat on the table- remember your ancestry! if your only shot is a few hundred yards and you are hungry, you either take it and make it count, or you stay hungry! also, in 1856 the sharps slantbreech model was made in a shotgun version. wouldnt it be nice if someone at one of the sharps companies came up with a sluggun with a 1:18-1:20 twist slug barrel and some saboted ammunition using the lyman 457125 or similar. think of the deer hunting possibilities in shotgun-only states!!!!

[powderburnerr]

Bullshop , It was once and john was an offshoot of the sale.........Dean

[montana_charlie]

Because my knowledge of shotgun slugs has become so out of date, I did a quick Google to pick up some current information. It seems the Hastings Paradox barrels are considered to be a 'top performer' in the genre, so I will assume any information relating to them will apply across the board.

The article I read had this to say about accuracy...
"Remember, not too many years ago with antiquated rifled slug loads and smoothbore barrels one would have extreme difficulty printing five-shot groups under 6-8 inches at 50 yards. Such is not the case with the Hastings Paradox barrel and BRI Slug combination. Would you believe consistent five-shot groups at two inches at 50 yards and four inches at 100 yards as an average? Well, it is most assuredly quite possible with this barrel/slug combination."

The article went on to say that states which limit big game hunting to 'shotguns' use different terms to describe which guns are legal. If the state uses 'smoothbore', a rifled slug barrel is out. If the term used is 'shotgun', a rifled barrel (such as the Hastings) would be permitted...as long as it was used on a 'shotgun action'. A shotgun action would be required in order to keep from running into the 'fifty caliber rifle' prohibition.

Being required to fire the slug from the less-solid shotgun lockup, it isn't surprising that 4 inches at a hundred is worth writing an article about. But it still isn't anything like 'rifle capability'. Taking that 4 inches out to 'a few hundred yards' paints a picture of a 12-inch group at 300. Hardly something that a 'sportsman' would inflict on a game animal.

Of course, the 'subsistance hunter' might feel fully justified in using such a crude shooter at that distance. After all, he is hungry. So all he has, to occupy his time, is finding something to eat. He is more than willing to spend the entire day following a badly hit deer...waiting for it to die. The pain and suffering is immaterial when compared to the hunger in his belly.

Sure, there are more efficient ways to get a deer...ways that don't expend so much time and energy on the hunter's part...and don't require a firearm. They would not be 'legal' in today's world, but when subsistance is the goal the law doesn't matter. However, using them would require the same kind of woodsman's skills that a shooter would need...if he wanted to get close enough to make a clean kill at a reasonable range.

Coming back to the Sharps idea...
The smoothbores produced in the 1800's were 'forager's guns', meant to be used to supplement the rations provided for troops in the field. I imagine they did not fire bullets, or slugs.
To mount a modern 'rifled shotgun barrel' on a rifle action would (most probably) get the owner tied up in a legal battle to prove his deer gun was not one of those over-fifty-caliber 'dangerous devices' that some states have laws pertaining to.

Of course, I might have all of this totally wrong...
CM

[appleseedgunsmith]

there is more than one way to skin a cat! a new unbarreled action could be used to skirt some state laws, hence not a rifle per se. also, if the rifle company made it a production item, it could be classed as a shotgun. you could find an original shotgun and rebarrel it. werent there rolling blocks imported a few years ago in 14 ga rechambered to 12? get one of those. in my state a shotgun for deer hunting is described as 10 ga or smaller using one ball or slug per barrel, rifled barrel permitted and no buckshot allowed, gun capacity limited to 3 shells. a simple plug gauge (12 or 20?)will tell them it is not an over 50 cal rifle.but you are right to a point, you may have to do some explaining to one of those idiots they call game wardens. a right that isnt exercised or fought for isnt much of a right. besides, wouldnt that be cool?

if you need more education on modern slugs, try rem buckhammer, lightfield, hornady sst. for guns try tar-hunt, H&R ultraslug, and ithaca deerslayer I,II,III

[Bullshop]

I thought it had changed hands several times since Wolfgang and the currect owners.
Anyway my point was that it dont make it bad.
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

there is more than one way to skin a cat! a new unbarreled action could be used to skirt some state laws,

but, you may have to do some explaining to one of those idiots they call game wardens.

I see, now...

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Wolfgang sold the one time, To the Bryan Family Bob Phlyis and Kirk. John S. had parted ways with Wolf before the Bryans bought Shiloh. The truth to that parting, there lies some very interesting things, certain guns that had went out the back door, and others. I personaly almost bought one of those out the back door guns in 40-70bn many many years ago. When I gave Wolfgang the Serial # he was very angry. I am very glad I did not by that little Carbine.

Fact is John was long gone before the Byran Family bought Shiloh Sharps.

My very first vist was in 1990 and I got to spent a couple of Hours with Wolfgang in the shop, in 91 I returned, Wolf took my order and convinced me, after correcting my misconceptions of the largest Sharps 45' made, to order my 45-110. Kirk and Bob were at that time on the floor learning the business from the ground floor up having just bought the business.


Sometimes it is best to not speculate about something you dont have the correct knowledge about. Let people think you might not know what your talking about, than to post and remove all doubt.

In 1994-95, I gave John the chance at some business, and ordered two 1874 actions. First promiss date of delivery was 4 months, after 8 Months I called was told waiting on internal parts 2-3 weeks, after an additional 6 months of waiting, I called and asked for John, he answered the phone, I explained that in 4 hours I would be in Big Timber along with my friend that I had ordered the actions for, and I wanted 1 of 2 things, my actions or My Money, which I had sent up $1800. John tried to convince me to wait another 6-8 weeks. I said its been 14 plus Months I want my money today, He gave his word that the money would be in the Mail, I reminded him that he had received a cashiers Check and I would expect the same. 3 days later I got the check.

He did keep his word on that, I however kept mine and have never bought one of his rifles.



The Lunger

[405]

Yikes,
Never heard all the ins and outs about the two companies other than the basic history, origin and split.

I own both types in model 1874 and have tested both with equal attention to detail. The fit and finish of the Shiloh is a little better than that of the C. But, the C. which is a little plainer may actually be more like an original Sharps because of that. Don't know since I've never seen an original Sharps in factory new condition

No matter. As far as function and accuracy and shootability- I can't tell the difference. Both are exceptional rifles.

[appleseedgunsmith]

did a little clay prototyping today to further investigate the validity of saboted bpcr shotgun rounds. the sabot face is concaved to catch air easier and fascilitate separation. and this is my .50-90 / 750 gr in a 12 ga . as far as quality goes, i own a c. sharps. the difference between them and shiloh is nearly meaningless at the black powder level. both are used in the winners circle according to bpcr match results posted in black powder cartridge news. ive seen and handled both and cant find discrepancies. shilohs are probably used more because they are more famous and they are available in greater quantities. shiloh is investment cast and the c. sharps is machined from billet. black will cause neither any problems and ruger has shown that castings can be strong! the c. sharps will handle loads that are on the scary side according to published smokeless loads in customer letters.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Two things:

1. The garbage truck. You guys haven't heard about the garbage truck story? A certain company was about one step in front of bankruptcy court, when a country trash truck rearended that gentleman's wife's caddy, and the settlement was enough to keep the company in business.

2. As far as an accurate slug gun, take the easy way. Buy a Lyman Sabot-Shocker slug mould. It looks just like a wasp-waisted flatnose air rifle pellet on steroids. It mikes .670"+/-
and has a hollow base. They were designed to fit inside a 1 1/8oz trap wad and be shot out of a rifled barrel, like my Savage 210. Ounce and an eighth is about 530gr, and it is possible to reach over 1800fps from mine. With a 6X scope it puts 3 under 2" at 100 yards. Just good enough to have killed about a dozen whitetailed deer down on the Snake River here in SW Idaho.

E'gad, I thought everyone had heard the trash truck saga.

Rich

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Rich,

I think thats why MR C. Sharps still drives Caddys?

LOL

The Lunger

That's a true story btw for those that Hold John S. in such High reguards.

As for C. Sharps 74's in the winner's circle, I shoot at the National level on a very regular basis, Very very seldom (as in never) has In the 12-13 years I have shot National and World Matches, has a C. Sharps won a major event.

Shiloh 74's yes. National Championships, and set a few Records along the way.

Quote from a fella at the Q last year" whatcha shooting there?"

My reply" Shiloh LR Express in 45-110 with Paper Patched bullets"

Quote" oh really? them 45-110's dont shoot very well not good for target work and Paper patching is not very accurate"

My Reply, Well I aint great shakes at shooting sitting, and my scores prove that, but I recon the target will tell the truth of the matter here in a month or Two down at Raton."

I walked away to put my rifle in the cart.

The fella asked My pardner Jimbo if that guy (me) knew what I was getting into going to Raton.

Jimbo replied:" I spect he does, thats Kenny Wasserburger that you just told that 45-110 and Paper Patched bullets wont shoot worth a Damm"

Jimbo came up to me laughing, asked me if I had heard that?

I replied " Jimbo Stupidity Knows No bounds, and there aint no law against it."

The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Not sure how a car wreck has anything to do with the quality of rifle, but so be it.

No doubt Shilohs rule the roost, there have been a Pedersoli or two gain some honorable mention as I recall. Have also seen some CSA's mentioned in some of the equipment lists.
I suspect it has more to do with shooters ability than which side of the street the rifle came from
Any truth to the rumor that Badger barrels gained their excellent reputation from all the Shilohs that got rebarreled with em?
Course if we follow the "everybody that wins stuff," we also have to admit the truth to the current wisdom that folks that shoot and win matches only shoot Swiss.........

[4060MAY]

Brian Chilson set a national record of 38/40 missing one chicken and one turkey wit a CSA Hi-wall in 45-90 in Sept 2008, Eastern Regional Championship Ridgway Pa, which is a Registered match. IIRC

beat his old record of 36/40.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

might want to take of a quick look at the top of this thread it reads C.Sharps vrs Shiloh, since Shiloh only makes a Sharps action, that would pretty much confine the comparing of the 74's since C. Sharps does not make a 63 right?

I was not talking about Highwalls either in my post.

As for rebarreled jobs Badger earned its rep on many guns, Does quite well also and is a rep well earned.

However at the 5@200 and Creedmoor Nationals a Stock Shiloh Barrel kicked alot of Obyermeyer, Krieger, Badger Barrels, Butts. And has done so on a pretty regular basis.


All BS aside, In the end be it a C.Sharps, A Shiloh, (why the hell can't folks spell that right?)
Or Lone Star, Pedersoli, Or any make, It dont much mater,

My beef with C.Sharps is long and well Known That guy that runs-Owns it Is and has been on a Pretty Damm Regular basis LESS THEN HONEST TO DEAL WITH.

Folks Screwed at the Q for jacked up Prices on Parts unknown sights and the list goes on and On, the reason the company did not go under due to wife getting Rear ended by a county Garbage Truck and the County sued for Big BUCKS.

What does: The shooter that works up the load thats shooting in his rifle, Can dope the conditions, Read em, Deal with em, and then Break good shots,

That is who wins the Matches: Thats The Real Truth behind the NUT BEHIND THE BUTT.

Last and not least powder: that Itty Bitty BP Group at the 5@200 was shot with Goex Fg Express and a Paper Patched 45-110.

The Lunger

[Mike Venturino]

The lady in question didn't get rear ended in her Caddy. She was backed over her own personal self. And it was after the marriage was over so its doubtful that any settlement she got went into that company.

And Kenny's right, any good quality rifle will win as long as the shooter and spotter team can do the job too. And I'll also put a Shiloh barrel up against any.

C. Sharps and Shiloh split in September 1985 to be exact. I was there that day.

Mike Venturino