Winchester 1873 accuracy (Original)

[7up]

Hi all - I am looking for some advice on getting the best out of my 1873.
it's in 44-40 , bore okay with some pitting.

I am using a .430 hollowbase with blackpowder lube in the grooves over some swiss number 3.
I am shooting at 100 yards so that is worth mentioning !
First 3 or 4 shots are acceptable, but accuracy gets wilder after that. I put a patch through the bore and the accuracy is restored. So I am guessing its the fouling + lead that is causing this.

What about using jacketed bullets, would this help at all, this or any other suggestions would be appreciated !
Thanks in advance

[Outpost75]

What black powder lube are you using? SPG is best. If you mix your own 50-50 beeswax and Crisco, olive or canola oil.

In hot weather if you want a firmer lube it is OK to use 3 to 1 beeswax and Crisco or vegetable oil.

What alloy are the bullets cast from? It should be soft for use with BP, 1 to 40 or 1 to 30 tin-lead is best with black.

Does the bullet carry enough lube for a rifle length barrel? Many modern bullets work OK in revolvers, but fail in rifle length tubes for lack of lube.

Have you slugged your barrel? Some original 1873s run quite large. If yours is, the HB bullet may not be up to the task if cast too hard.

I absolutely would NOT shoot jacketed bullets in an original 1873! First, it is hard to get one of correct diameter that fits, if your barrel is a bit rough it will metal foul, and jacketed bullets are hard on soft iron BP barrels. None of this is good for the longevity of your antique rifle.

It would be nice to know the specifics on your bullet. I am not away who is making a HB design for .44-40 and I would like to know more about it.

I have not found hollow-based bullets necessary if the bullet fits properly and a correct lube was used.

Hopefully Indian Joe, Hootmix or Savvy Jack will chime in and give you further advice, but the above should at least get you started thinking.

Accurate 43-215C designed by John Kort is a proven design in the 1873. There are others that also work, but "John Christian's" is a true classic and we do honor to his memory by using it.

[7up]

Hi thanks for your response.
Slugged just now, grooves are at .431 / .432 , lands are at .425
I use soft lead.
The bullets I use are 188gr flatnose hollow base with three grease grooves,bullet length of .629.
It looks similar to the accurate mold exepct they don't have the large groove in the middle.
The lube is black powder gold.

https://www.cdsgltd.co.uk/lyman-blac...llet-lube.html

It is worth noting that the gun will not chamber a bullet over .430

[Hootmix]

Your serial # will tell you your rate of twist ,,shortly after 29,000 carbines have a 1 in 40 twist ,, rifles 1 in 36 ,, both are " slow twist " designed for 200gr. cast bullets. Post is correct softer lead & good ( lots ) lube . The 43-215C as per Post ,, good choice .

coffees ready ,, Hootmix.

[Outpost75]

Hi thanks for your response.
Slugged just now, lands are at .431 / .432 , grooves are at .425
I use soft lead.
The bullets I use are 188gr flatnose hollow base with three grease grooves,bullet length of .629.
It looks similar to the accurate mold exepct they don't have the large groove in the middle.
The lube is black powder gold.

https://www.cdsgltd.co.uk/lyman-blac...llet-lube.html

It is worth noting that the gun will not chamber a bullet over .430

Accurate has several heeled .44-40 bullets intended for older rifles having a large groove diameter, but tight chamber neck, which precludes chambering a cartridge loaded with a bullet of full groove diameter. 43-200QL is the BP version. The driving band diameter is .428, with normal tolerance +0.002 and its enlarged nose above the crimp groove functions similarly to a German stop-ring, which can be sized to groove diameter.

Attachment 253385

[lightman]

Mine will shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards into a group about the size of a small plate. (saucer) Maybe a little larger than that. Thats with my cast boolit.

[7up]

Mine will shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards into a group about the size of a small plate. (saucer) Maybe a little larger than that. Thats with my cast boolit.

Good shooting ,is this with black powder ?
Do you mind sharing your load data please ?

[7up]

Accurate has several heeled .44-40 bullets intended for older rifles having a large groove diameter, but tight chamber neck, which precludes chambering a loaded with a bullet of full groove diameter. 43-200QL is the BP version. The driving band diameter is .428, with normal tolerance +0.002 and its enlarged nose above the crimp groove functions similarly to a German stop-ring, which can be sized to groove diameter.

Attachment 253385

Thanks for this in depth detail - I think the person I get the boolits from uses a modified Lee mould as I don't cast these myself. I will look into getting my own mould I think.
Based on my rifle, what sizes should I go for please ?
I also have a .430 lubsizer

[7up]

Your serial # will tell you your rate of twist ,,shortly after 29,000 carbines have a 1 in 40 twist ,, rifles 1 in 36 ,, both are " slow twist " designed for 200gr. cast bullets. Post is correct softer lead & good ( lots ) lube . The 43-215C as per Post ,, good choice .

coffees ready ,, Hootmix.

Hi many thanks - my Winchester is dated around 1892 if this helps ?

[Bigslug]

Worth an experiment. . .

You've got a tubular magazine bolted to your barrel. Are your groups coming apart because of fouling, or because the barrel/load combination vibrates more consistently with a certain amount of rounds in the tube?

[Outpost75]

Worth an experiment. . .

You've got a tubular magazine bolted to your barrel. Are your groups coming apart because of fouling, or because the barrel/load combination vibrates more consistently with a certain amount of rounds in the tube?

Also tension of the barrel relative to the mag tube varies as the barrel heats and as a full magazine tube is emptied!

[waksupi]

Check how closely fit the forearm is. There should be a bit of forward/back play. If they are tight, when the barrel heats, it will throw shots until the barrel cools. That's probably what happens when you stop to clean the bore.

[7up]

Check how closely fit the forearm is. There should be a bit of forward/back play. If they are tight, when the barrel heats, it will throw shots until the barrel cools. That's probably what happens when you stop to clean the bore.

Hi thanks for the replies - When I first used the gun I used some old H&R powder, accuracy was off on the 2nd shot. Then I moved over to swiss and used a black powder lube, and the accuracy held longer, which I why I think fouling is the issue. I will try the suggestions mentioned, but I will also try dipping a round in udderly smooth and single loading to see if that makes a difference.