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Thread: Old E

  1. #41
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    Chill Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old-Win View Post
    Quote from and old source - On a different note, if anybody knows where there's a fairly good supply of Elephant powder that I could pick up somewhere out west, I'd appreciate knowing about it. I'm looking for 2000 2F Elephant or newer. Velocity may not be everything but it sure shoots well in my 38-50.
    « Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 06:28:51 AM »
    Not much of that floating around in the system. Last week I looked at how much of it has been brought into the U.S.
    I had looked at a sample of the second shipment into the U.S. Was not allowed to check the first shipment and opted out of the third shipment.
    I don't know if the importer, Diamondback Chemical, is still in business. They were located close to me at Tamaqua, Pa. This Diamondback Chemical Company was a subsidiary of Copperhead Chemical Company. This Copperhead Chemical Company produced medicinal nitroglycerin products. The plant was formerly owned by ICI and before that it was an Atlas Powder dynamite plant.
    The Diamondback Black Powder came in from Brazil. A BP plant built around 2003 or 2004 using machinery pulled out of the old Elephant plant after it had been shut down in 2001.
    E. Ogre " End Quote
    **********************************

    I like the old Elephant powder too. The earlier than 2000 production was nothing worth having but the lots 25/99 would shoot. Too bad they just got the hang of making good powder and they went out of business. It was not the best for mid and longrange work as the velocity was low but it did produce great accuracy and I could make it work best by going to the next size case (45-90 V 45-70). I still have some and like it for BP Schuetzen matches in my 38-55.Click image for larger version. 

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    I have no way to know but I can guess that the newer Diamondback made in a new location by new people with different source components may not resemble the good 25/99 lots of Pachyderm Powder.

    In those days I was buying it for $125 a case in person. Very useful for the price!
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 06-13-2020 at 12:12 AM.
    Chill Wills

  2. #42
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    The only case of Olde Eynsford powder I have experience with is 2F and acts like it wanted to shoot but never would group without throwing a flyer every 5 or so shots. I hear that some lots are better than others. This was one of the earlier production lots. I had been given some sample cans to try and I was favorably impressed. I asked for the same lot as the samples and was told I would receive it but that did not happen, ....and you can't return BP. Live with it and eat the cost.

    Maybe I'm not experienced enough to load and use this lot of Olde E. Or, maybe a different lot would shoot? I tried a lot of stuff and burned a third of a case working on it. I did step on it hard in my efforts to make something good out of it. Nada.

    The two claims to fame the Swiss powder brought to the game in 2000 (late 1999) was
    1) it shot well with great velocity and
    2) as it turned out, lot to lot variations were little and easy to adjust to, and then you would be right back in the accuracy game.
    Pricey but well worth not having to burn half a case of GOEX to find a load that might be almost as accurate as Swiss was from the get go.

    All this was good until sometime in the 2013 production. The excuse offered for the poor preforming lots was loss of the long time KNO3 supplier. Something about the dangers in Israel at this time. A second source was substituted. The Israeli supplier was able to deliver again sometime in 2017. During the substituted KNO3 period, powder lots were said to be "blended" if they did not meet some (?) standard. Very good lots have been in evidence between 2013 and 2017 to be sure. Also, some real stinkers exist. I am getting good reports from friends that the later cases they risked buying post 2018 production are shooting well again, however the density varies more than the old good powder pre 2013 and it may take a little more fooling around looking for the sweet spot.

    -CW
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 06-13-2020 at 12:06 PM. Reason: typo repair
    Chill Wills

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    You always need another mold!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I haven't noticed any difference in the lots of OE, and I've been shooting it since Jerry Dean called and said he could send me 2 lbs of the first case of it he got..
    I do admit tho that I haven't got into the last case of 2f I picked up in late 2018, except for the rounds I loaded for Emily to shoot at Worland and Cheyenne. Judging by her scores at Worland I would venture that lot of powder is the same as the others as the load I used was the same one that rifle has liked since day one.
    I shoot a lot more 1 1/2, and it hasn't changed either.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    It could be that some OE would be worth trying in my .44-77 (a rifle I don't have) when and if I ever have one. I've given up on having it in time to do anything with for this year, which has been a total loss shooting wise anyway.
    Which OE powder(s) would be best in the .44-77 with 500 to 530 grain paper patch bullets? 1 1/2 or 2F? Or both?
    Jim Kluskens
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    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    1 1/2 with the heavy bullets. 2 with lighter.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Jim that would be like asking the Skippy peanut butter CEO which is better Skippy or Peter pan

    I been shooting the old Shiloh Farmingdale with the generous chamber using 1.5, 2, and 3F OE ladder loads and the 2F has been the winner. But I mostly used a 514 gr Elliptical and I haven't had much time to try the other .44 bullets I use in the hunting rifle (the one you shot) yet.
    75 gr with the 2F and 77gr with the 1.5. .012" craft paper wad over the powder and a 1/16" dance cork gasket under the bullet with 1/18 alloy. I have to use a softer alloy because the cork reduces the obturation a smidge.

    Jim before you invest a bunch of money ordering the powder wait a while till the Rapids shoot and I will give you a can of 1.5, 2 and 3F to load some ladder loads so you can judge what will work for you.

    I shot some outstanding 5 shot groups using 3F with the 514 gr elliptical to push it a little harder.
    Last edited by Lead pot; 06-13-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I've been told OE 1f works well too, but I have not tried it,I do know it works extremely well in the 40-90 bn and 45 2 7/8. I found OE 3f to be way to fast to be of much use.
    The long defunct Goex Cartridge is a very accurate powder in the 44-77 but the velocity is low and the fouling isn't acceptable after you've used OE.
    I did try Schuetzen and Swiss 1f in the 44-77's and they both said without a doubt, don't ever feed us that stuff again...
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    I am surprised 3F works in that big of a case. I have used 3F Swiss and Goex in my .45-70 and .40-65 but never in anything bigger.

    I figure if I buy some OE it would probably be late this year, but I would be interested in trying some if you can spare a can of each 2F and 1 1/2.

    I'm really thinking that the phone has to ring any day now. The barrel went into the bluing line a month ago and it should take too much time to screw it back on the action. All the rest of the work, like tweaking the lever spring, should be done already i would think. Put the barrel on and ship it out.

    I'm all ready to get started on this end, I just need a rifle!
    Last edited by Distant Thunder; 06-13-2020 at 06:04 PM.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  10. #50
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    I’m not that great a competition shot (just proved it again this morning ), but I think my signal-to-noise ratio off the bench is good enough to draw conclusions from in load testing, anyway.

    Haven’t had much success with anything but Swiss 1 and 1-1/2F with paper patch boolits in .38-55 and .45-70 straight wall cases. With grease groove boolits, 66gr of OE 1-1/2 shoots to the same elevation as 63 gr Swiss 1-1/2, in both my .45-70s, with no accuracy difference I can detect, at 600 yards.

    I’ve tried 2 and 3F Swiss here and there, but haven’t found any noteworthy advantage in using it. Swiss is so quick even in the coarse granulations that extra burn speed doesn’t seem to matter, in my limited experimenting. I’ve mostly just played with the finer grain sizes in .32-40 and other small cases.

    I’ve had no success with any Swiss in the .44-77 case with paper patch boolits, but OE 1F, at either 75 or 80 gr, shoots them great. Compressing the powder down into the neck and shoulder of the bottleneck case seems to be the key to success here; OE thrives on compression, while Swiss may tolerate it to a point and then turn on you. It certainly didn’t like it when I tried it in this case, and didn’t work well uncompressed, either.

    I’ve only used OE and Swiss 1-1/2 in the .44 with light grease groove boolits for 200 M chicken loads; haven’t seriously tried any longer ranges, although I got a hit or two on Pigs shooting up some extra Chicken loads.

    I've written up most of my experimental findings on this sub forum. I was hoping the competition between OE and Swiss would result in some price reductions, especially in Swiss, but they both seem to continue to rise like a bull market, Swiss ahead of OE. I would be interested in any observations on the densities of current lots of Swiss offered for sale; the low-density stuff I bought a couple years back seemed to be less reliable on target than previous lots. Didn’t keep lot number records; but it was the first stuff out with the pink label and no Matterhorn.

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    I have used several different lots of Swiss 1 1/2 over the years. Back when it was consistent I didn't really keep track of the lot numbers. At that time I was using it in my C. Sharps .45-70 for Creedmoor matches (800, 900 & 1000 yards). It always shot well and was very consistent from lot to lot.

    I started with 74.0 grains under the Lyman Postell bullet (457132) and that rifle always liked that bullet and it really liked it with Swiss 1 1/2. It should be noted that that rifle has a 3/16" freebore which allows me to seat the Postell out with two driving bands exposed. So 74 grains was not a lot of compression, very little actually. In those days Swiss really wasn't supposed to like much compression, or so it was said. This load gave me 1226 fps out of my 34" barrel.

    As time went on and I was trying hard to win a Creedmoor match I started loading more 1 1/2. While the accuracy was best at 74 to 75 grains it wasn't at all bad as I increased the compression and I got more velocity, which I wanted. I eventually got to 82.0 grains with about .300" compression and it still shot well. At 200 meters the 82 grain load would hold under 1 1/2" vertical and about 4" left to right. While the 74 grain load had only slightly more vertical but only 3" left to right. The 82 grain load gave me 1279 fps. Not quite the 1300 fps I wanted, but closer.

    The 82 grain load with .300" compression shot good enough that I was able to win my first Creedmoor match in August of 2005 at Camp Grayling, Michigan. So the old lots of Swiss 1 1/2 didn't seem to mind more compression though many may have thought so at the time. I later figured out that 82 grains was actually just a second sweet spot that was there for those who looked for it. Compressing any powder that much has to be done carefully or you will bulge your cases. I don't recommend doing it.

    Instead I found a better way to get more powder behind my bullets. I bought a Shiloh .45-90! That rifle changed my world for the better. I could load 85 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss and get over 1300 fps. It took me until 2009 to win my second Creedmoor match, this time at Lodi, WI. For that match I loaded 92 grain of the same lot of 1 1/2 (#250205) that I had been loading at 85 grains. It was a totally untested load but with Swiss it just didn't seem to matter, it still shot well enough to win the match.

    That was the last match I shot with grease groove bullets, I jumped over to paper patch and never looked back. Only now I had to load 100 to 105 grains of 1 1/2 behind my bore diameter paper patch bullets. It didn't take long to realize I was burning through my good powder at a faster pace than I was comfortable with.

    So when I built my Hepburn I had it chambered for the .45-70 with a Brent Danielson paper patch chamber. With the same bore diameter ppb that I had used in my .45-90 I was able to load 83 grains of Swiss 1 1/2. This gave me about 1290 fps. When I ran out of my good lot of Swiss I order more and it was of course a different lot. What I always did back then was I loaded the same 83 grains and just adjusted the compression to keep the same seating depth. That has always been more compression as Swiss was even then getting less dense with each new lot. When I bought the next bunch of 1 1/2, #040313, I just increased the compression a little and kept the same 83 grains by weight. It never missed a beat and I continued to do well at matches. I do believe I could improve the accuracy with this 2013 lot if I did some load development.

    Then came lot #210113! Not mine but a friend's and he could not hit a barn from the inside with the door closed using that lot. So I got some from him. I loaded it in my .45-70 Hepburn just as I have always done, 83 grains and a little more compression. I could only just barely keep my shots on paper at 1000 yards while testing it. So with out getting up or moving I switched to my lot at 83 grains with two different bullets and put the next 6 shots inside the 10 ring and never touched the knobs, I just watched the conditions! Lot #210113 would just hold paper at 1000 yards with 83 grains and lot #040313 would hold the 10-ring at the same 83 grains (weighed)!

    This fluffier 2013 Swiss didn't seem to work very well at all. Later in talking to other shooters I was told that with more compression it should shoot well. This winter I loaded it with 3/16" compression in my .40-65 and shot the 10-shot group I posted earlier in this thread. So the less dense Swiss 1 1/2 looks like it will shoot well with more compression, at least in some rifles. I still need to go back and test it in my Hepburn before I can say for sure. Others have found the same thing, more compression works.

    My usual load in my .40-65 is 72 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss under a 2-diameter ppb. I had to go all the way to 76 grains to get the group I posted and I haven't really tested to see if 76 grains gives the best accuracy. So what I've been doing by holding to the same weight of Swiss 1 1/2 and compressing the fluffier powder more has apparently been going in the right direction. It's seems that with certain lots starting sometime in 2013 the weight has to be increased to get the accuracy and the compression is increased even more with it. At least it seems so in my limited experience. I have a few different lots I can test this thinking on and I hope to do so yet this summer.

    So if you have some Swiss 1 1/2 that seems to not be the best there may still be hope for it with a little load development and you may have to give up on the idea that "Swiss doesn't like a lot of compression" like was said in the old days.
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  12. #52
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    Hi Guys interesting conversation,? Is schutzen Wano. I had vg results with 1 P grade Wano ,shot as good as any Swiss 1.5 if not better in my 40/65 target Roller, the F grade range of Wano would be only good for crackers.Maybe the Swiss I have is from the dodgy batches!!Most of the better shooters here in AU used to swear by Swiss, hasent been my experience to date.I definitely don’t class myself as a better shooter.

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    It sure seems that making black powder with a reasonable degree of consistency for an extended period of time is impossible, even today. If smokeless powder had the same problems with consistency shooters would be blowing up their rifles and themselves all the time.

    It seems that Swiss was able to do it early on but has since lost the secret recipe. And nobody else has ever been able to do it. I don't mind some slight variations, but if you have to start all over from the ground floor with each new lot of XXX powder it's a bit of a PITA. It is what it is and the conversation does fill lots of forum pages and will give us a direction to go thanks to everyone's input.

    I have enough of what has been a good lot of Swiss to last me a little while. I do have other lots of Swiss and I would like to see if they can be made to shoot as well as my old stuff. I'm also looking toward the future and what powder I need to put my limited money into, be it Swiss, OE, KIK or whatever. My suggestion to others based on what I have seen over the past 30 years is when you find a lot of whatever powder that works for you buy as much of it as you can because it won't be that way forever! I wish I had done that with Goex Cartridge or the old Swiss 1 1/2 from before 2013, but I did not.

    Right now it's looking like OE 1 1/2 or 2F is a good choice, but I'd like to hear more from those using it. It would also help to see it listed at the top of the score sheet. Have any matches actually been won using OE? When and where? By whom?

    I moved to Swiss 1 1/2 many years ago because a man who has won more matches than I could ever dream of told me that's what he used and he was right back then, but things change over time.

    This is one of the reasons those PITA equipment lists that we sometimes are asked to fill out are so important. We need those lists to follow what works. That kind of documentation is far more valuable than forum posts, or at least requires list filtering.
    Jim Kluskens
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    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  14. #54
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I for one would like to see the KIK powder come back to life.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I for one would like to see the KIK powder come back to life.
    Kurt - I have 37 lbs of the 2010 shipment (F to 3F) left out of 3 cases
    Reload it judicially cause then never will be any more
    Regards
    John

  16. #56
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    John, I have 15# of 1.5 and 8 of 2 saving it when the competition is rough or when all the other powder goes down the drain. LOL.

  17. #57
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    Does any one have a decipher for the date/lot codes of both Swiss and GEOX?
    I picked up 4# of Swiss 1 1/2 for $10 at an estate sale along with 17# smokeless and a Lee hand press for $100 total.
    The Swiss date I think is 07 of 2013 of the Geox I have the code is not as clear, the 2 plastic bottles I would think are the newest but the metal cans I got last fall have what seems like a newer date. Of the 2 lines what is the date?
    The C&H, ICI and Dupont flask can have no code/date but should be pre 1970.
    Swiss code - 071.013
    some Geox codes are - 03-85 /90ju18c [metal] and 02-96 / 17ma06b [plastic] and 02-41 / 09ma03b [newest metal] so 3 of 85 and 2 of 96 and ?
    Shaune509

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    I believe the Swiss is October 7, 2013. The Goex I could only guess.

    I know of one shooter using that lot of Swiss with very good results and I'm pretty sure he is using 3/16" compression. That is where the info about using more compression came from.
    Last edited by Distant Thunder; 06-14-2020 at 08:26 PM. Reason: Add more info.
    Jim Kluskens
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    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    rumor has it the second best score fired at 600 yesterday in Cheyenne was some goof shooting a standard shiloh 45-70 with paper patch bullets and OE 2f, and loaded in Hornady cases to boot.
    Last edited by Don McDowell; 06-15-2020 at 06:09 PM.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    Well congratulations to some goof and his .45-70!
    Last edited by Distant Thunder; 06-16-2020 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Corrected Don's error!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check