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Thread: Can Anyone Tell Me Which???

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Can Anyone Tell Me Which? Carbon Fiber Wrapping

    I have another DIY project in the planning stage and I've been trying to gather as much information on the subject as I can before starting my prototyping experiments.

    I need to know the correct type of resin to use in order to Carbon Fiber Wrap a couple of the left over take-off rifle barrels I have in my storage closet. I want to use those two take-off barrels as Guinea Pigs before ruining a perfectly good barrel that I can actually use.

    I have reached out to some of the manufactures of these outrageously expensive barrels to ask the exact type of resin they use and where I might get my hands on some but there are only a handful of these Carbon Fiber barrel wrapping businesses and since they have the market for such things pretty much to themselves I get the distinct sense that they are reluctant to share such information with a home gunsmithing do-it-yourselfer like me or you. Imagine if the gunsmiths learned that although it may have taken engineers and rocket scientist to initially figure it all out -having figured out the Carbon Fiber wrapping process- it turns out that it really isn't that hard to do. Keeping everyone in the dark about it essentially would mean keeping profit margins high for the handful of manufactures. Incidentally, it took engineers and even some Rocket Scientists to figure out how to advance modern firearms and now here we are with home gunsmiths and actual gunsmiths doing the same thing. This leads me to believe that the same is most likely true of Carbon Fiber wrapping a barrel.

    For the most part, the information available on the internet has to do mainly with marketing hype from the few manufactures that make and sell these barrels. Little is mentioned about the actual name, type or sources of the resin they use. I can get the correct type of Carbon Fiber from alot of sources; even on Ebay. I can even rig up a winding jig with my metal lathe but, it's the bonding agent that I'm looking for.

    Can any of you guys out there in Cast Boolits Land shed any light on this for me? I've read as much as I can on the subject from the actual experts and, far to much from the self-proclaimed internet "Experts." I'm finding that like with my Swiss K31 re-barreling project, when I went looking for information in the forums and chat rooms where I thought that info could be found, the Na-Sayers were falling all over themselves for the chance to tell me all the reasons that their self-assigned "Expertise" dictated that such a project should be left to the experts alone. I don't recall any such dream-killing replies here on the Cast Boolits forum. When I did post that K31 project all I got was alot of interest in the subject so, here I am again posting this DIY Carbon Fiber Barrel wrapping project. If you have any helpful information you can share about the correct type of resin to bond the Carbon Fiber to the barrel and to itself, I'd appreciate it.

    If I had listened to those self-appointed "Experts" I wouldn't have become one of the few DIY people on the planet who had successfully rebarreled a K31 Swiss rifle and re-chambered it in the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge. I'd like to be among the first who has successfully and safely Carbon Fiber Wrapped his own rifle barrels too. I just need to find out the exact type of resin to use and where to get it.

    HollowPoint
    Last edited by HollowPoint; 12-20-2019 at 10:57 PM. Reason: left out some information

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Remiel's Avatar
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    I got out of racing when carbon fiber was just be coming commonplace, I would check with performance company's and ask what they use for their high heat applications. It could be similar or the same, I have been surprised in how much certain technologies overlap in the most uncommon of places.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    I got out of racing when carbon fiber was just be coming commonplace, I would check with performance company's and ask what they use for their high heat applications. It could be similar or the same, I have been surprised in how much certain technologies overlap in the most uncommon of places.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    You could be right. I never thought of that. If they do overlap somehow there's a better chance of getting that resin information from those who may not feel as threatened by sharing that info with a DIY guy and his home gunsmithing project. Thanks for your reply.

    HollowPoint

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I don't know if it's the same thing, but Max HTE has served quite well on some carbon fiber wrapping that I do on a fairly regular basis. But as the above posters say - ask some experts!

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    I don't know if it's the same thing, but Max HTE has served quite well on some carbon fiber wrapping that I do on a fairly regular basis. But as the above posters say - ask some experts!

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    I'm still searching. I am now going through some YouTube videos that I missed before and leaving inquiries there as well. Thanks for your reply. I asked my questions here because it's a gun related sight and I figured that among the huge number of members here there is bound to be one or two guys who have some hands on experience or knowledge of Carbon Fiber wrapping gun barrels; either through their work or their friends or relatives connections.

    HollowPoint

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Some experimental aircraft use carbon fiber. You should be able to find information on that use.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Where I work we use IM7/977-3 tow preg to make a high performing Aerospace product
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks to all you guy who have taken the time to reply. I'm still looking for the right stuff. I did inquire of some of the trades you all have referred to. Those who have actually answered my inquiries have all stated basically the same thing but with different words.

    These different trades such as those using some form of Carbon Fiber laminating, bonding and forming did basically what I'm doing now. They went in search of this information they needed until they found it. The resins or bonding agents they're using are those needed for their specific applications, be it forming Carbon Fiber parts from Aerospace to bicycles. For the most part, they too had to rely the expertise of others to tell them which resin or bonding agent was best for their application. That's where I'm at right now. Asking for this information directly from the Carbon Fiber Wrapped barrel manufactures is like pulling teeth without any anesthetic. I've come to the conclusion that what I really need is to ask the actual experts who formulate these resins, not necessarily from those who know how to apply the resins but have no knowledge of how they work.

    So now I'm just doing internet searches for the makers/manufactures and sellers of Carbon Fiber bonding agents or resins. Here too, I've run into problems because these manufactures are reluctant to deal with an individual DIY-Dreamer like myself or yourself. They are wanting to attract larger orders for their products rather than a pint or gallon sale here or there. I have yet to receive any replies from any of the manufactures of these resins but in all fairness, my inquiry emails were sent early on a weekend close to the Christmas holiday. I might get a reply next week or after Christmas when everyone is back to work or maybe never; who knows. In the mean time I'll just keep looking.

    I did come across a couple of candidate resins that might be the correct type of resin to use by looking up the Max HTE resin that cwtebay mentioned in his reply. Although the specs on that resin didn't really show the ability to withstand the type of effects it would be subjected to on a fired rifle barrel, it did lead me to some other resin formulations that did appear to have these qualities. I'd like to get the right stuff the first time out to minimize the trial and error that my DIY projects are prone to having.

    That's where I'm at right now. If any of you happen to come across someone with knowledge on the subject maybe you can pick their brain for me and share with us what they have to say on the subject. I'll be back.

    HollowPoint
    Last edited by HollowPoint; 12-22-2019 at 04:47 PM. Reason: mispelling

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Maybe I’m clueless, but I would have guessed that the barrel companies install a barrel inside a piece of tube that they buy. They focus on the endcaps and barrel. Anyone know otherwise?

  10. #10
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    Check out 'US Composites'. They have all that stuff.

    Not their carbon fiber things, but I've bought from them before and they were good to deal with.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Maybe I’m clueless, but I would have guessed that the barrel companies install a barrel inside a piece of tube that they buy. They focus on the endcaps and barrel. Anyone know otherwise?
    You are not clueless. There are a handful of manufactures that do this Carbon Fiber barrel wrapping process. One of them (I think it's BSF) uses a process similar to what you've described. In my search for more information on the various wrapping processes that these outfits use I believe that most of them simply turn down existing barrel blanks and replace the removed metal with Carbon Fiber. This one producer of Carbon Fiber wrapped barrels does in fact just wrap a mandrel of the appropriate diameter and when cured, they slip it into place onto their turned down and threaded barrels then secure it in place with threaded end caps. If I'm not mistaken most of their barrels are shorter and made for AR 15 platform guns. They are turned down in segments of staggered diameters from larger to smaller so that they can slip the Carbon Fiber tubes into place, secure them, then slip another tube into place then secure that with a threaded muzzle cap and so on.

    I actually started some CAD models of possible methods of going about the wrapping procedure. What I mean is; I've modeled the profiles of three different turned-down barrels. Two would be wrapped without the threaded end caps to sandwich the Carbon Fiber tubes in place and one of those CAD models is of a shorter barrel modeled in such a manner that I'd simply be winding or wrapping the Carbon Fiber onto a mandrel of a matching diameter then after curing, removing it from the mandrel and slipping it into place onto my turned down barrel; then securing it with those threaded end caps. I did this just so I could visualize it a bit better before actually trying it. I may post those CAD models later but I don't want to get ahead of myself. After seeing them maybe you all could tell me what your gut-feeling tells you about these possible ways of going about the actual areas to be wrapped.

    It's incredibly simple to Over-Complicate the entire process by Over-Thinking it AND just as easy to Over- Simplify it too. In my mind's eye, I just don't see it as being that complicated. The only thing holding me up right now is finding the correct resin for this application.

    Initially I thought that the first few wraps, which included those parts of the Carbon Fiber filament that make contact with the barrel metal, had to be bonded to the actual metal of the barrel but, what I'm seeing now from having taken a closer look at the winding or wrapping process that the BSF Carbon Fiber barrel maker uses, the actual Carbon Fiber tube isn't bonded to the barrel. It's sandwiched in place by the pressure of the threaded end caps. Whether the Carbon Fiber filaments are bonded to the metal of those Carbon Fiber barrels that are wrapped from end to end -without the threaded end caps- is yet to be determined. I'm still in the learning stage of this DIY project. I already know more than I did when I started but that still isn't quite good enough for me to dive right in at this point.

    HollowPoint
    Last edited by HollowPoint; 12-31-2019 at 12:47 AM. Reason: Misspelled Barrel Maker Name

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    This may not be what you are looking for so here goes. Think it was on the show "How It's Made". They were carbon fiber wrapping an entire body of a jet and they did mention that the carbon fiber tape they were using was already impregnated with the resin and hardener. they were putting on the carbon fiber in about two inch strips from what looked like a huge roll of carbon fiber. Naturally there was some kind of tensioning device and a roller to apply the tape. I'm thinking that you would be using a stranded type of carbon fiber. Only problem is that the resin and hardner would have to have a long pot life (from the time you mix it until it starts to set up) much like bedding compound. You may want to check with Devcon or Belzona who do mfg different plastic metals some with high temp applications. Frank

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Wheelguns 1961's Avatar
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    I imagine it is some form of epoxy. Try reaching out to west system epoxy. I used to build boats, and west system was a leader in the epoxy field. They have always been very free with technical information. Explain to them that you need a high temp formula, and see what they say.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I have toured a carbon fiber barrel plant as I know the owner and can tell you that there is a lot of work put into them and they earn the dollars that they cost. I can also tell you that the cf material and epoxy is not as important as the wrapping process, the, curing, then the finishing/ machining of the cf. BTW its a dirty nasty process that eats up tooling/machines. No way in hell I'd mess with it without the proper ppe, downdraft, ventilation, and hell even another building as that dust gets everywhere.
    Not going anywhere near my lathe with it either.
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Samari46: I think I may have viewed either the video you're referring to or a similar video. It shows basically what I've pictured in my mind regarding the process of wrapping Carbon Fiber, except that the strips of filament I'd be dealing with are no where near as wide.

    Wheelguns1961: At this point I'm still not really sure if it's technically an epoxy, a resin or some other type of bonding agent. What I am sure of is that it has to be able to withstand high temperatures. I have come across some resins made for wrapping various types of materials including Carbon Fiber, Fiber Glass and some others I can't remember the name of right now. My road block now is that I want to make sure I'm buying the right stuff; the optimum stuff before plopping down my nickels and dimes.

    akajun: I have taken all of that into consideration. That doesn't mean that I've got it all covered. It just means that I know what I'm up against.

    Thanks for your input guys. I really do appreciate it. I'm still doing my research, waiting for replies to emails I've sent and doing my due diligence.

    HollowPoint

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    Try giving RAKA Inc. a call, they've been quite helpful on some of my CF projects. 772-489-4070 but I think they're closed til after New Years day.
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  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyEllis View Post
    Try giving RAKA Inc. a call, they've been quite helpful on some of my CF projects. 772-489-4070 but I think they're closed til after New Years day.
    Thanks Roy Ellis: I'll write that number down and give it a try if I don't get any replies to any of the email inquiries I've sent out.

    HollowPoint

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I finally got a reply to one of my email inquiries to those producers, manufactures, vendors of resins. I got the contact information from off of the X-Winder website.

    For those of you who aren't familiar with X-Winder, neither was I until I decided to learn how to Carbon Fiber wrap my own barrels. Soller Composites, LLC; the guy who replied to my email was Jon Soller. This is the closest I've come so far to getting some specific answers to my questions. I asked two specific questions in my email; which Carbon Fiber/Tow and which Resin.

    With the limited information I supplied him in my email (I'd be wrapping Stainless Steel gun barrels that would be subjected to high heat) he replied with a couple of specific recommendations. Rather than paraphrasing I've just cut and pasted our email correspondence thus far. I'll contact him again after the holiday because I have two or three more questions I need clarification on.

    HollowPoint



    Greetings from Arizona:

    I got your contact information for the X-Winder website where I recently became a member. I will be buying one of their X-Winder units in the upcoming months but in the mean time I have been doing my due diligence in the form of research regarding Carbon Fiber materials and the bonding agents or resins used to bond this material together. There is so much general information out there that it’s easy to get beat down by Information -Overload. That’s where I’m at right now; beat down.

    You appear to be held in high enough regard for the folks over at the X-Winder website to list Soller Composites as a trusted provider of both materials and expertise in the field of Carbon Fiber Wrapping.

    To this end I thought I would take a chance and inquire directly from the experts in this field. It is my intent to wrap small diameter Stainless Steel rifle barrels with Carbon Fiber. In my search for specific information regarding this application I’ve come across a lot of marketing hype from the handful of those who have already arrived at the correct type of Carbon Fiber, the Correct type of bonding agent and winding processes to end up with a durable and heat resistant finished product.

    Is there any specific information you can share with me to narrow down the choices in the type of Carbon Fiber and Resin for this particular application? If not, can you direct me to a specific information resource that will help me determine the correct components for my Carbon Fiber Wrapping foray? Incidentally, I’m a private gunsmith who has grown weary of paying up to eight-hundred-bucks a pop for Carbon Fiber Wrapped barrels that have been put together by one of the small handful of business that specialize in this area of gunsmith supplies. I think it’s time to make this technology available to all the other gunsmiths out there looking for some relief as well.

    Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.

    Tim M.


    Hi Tim,

    We own an xwinder, we sell tow (carbon, aramid, fiberglass, etc), we sell sleeves (tubular fabrics), and flat fabrics.

    We sell to this industry and there seems to be many different approaches. Some use flat fabrics, many use our carbon sleeves,
    some do their own winding, and we sell them tow. Which approach you use depends on several factors (I'll assume you
    settled on one of them, otherwise call me after the new year and we can discuss this).

    If you want to go the winding route, which seems the way you are considering, it is the cheapest from a material perspective.
    Most use a 12K tow and we are about to have a huge tow sale.

    The epoxy should be easy. We sell, to the best of our knowledge, the highest temp 2 part epoxy in the world: Adtech 820.
    It is good to over 215F which makes it ideal for gun barrels and works well in the xwinder resin bath.

    There are other 2 part epoxies out there, but most of the goods ones start to soften between 160 & 180F (typically closer to
    160F).

    Being Xmas eve, I need to finish up and get home, but I hope this gets you started and is somewhat helpful. If you want
    more help email (or call in Jan) and I'll be happy to help you out to the best of my ability.

    Best Regards,

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Just One Of The Ways I'd Thought I'd Try Wrapping

    I have a few different way I could go about this once I get all the components for this project together. I already have the donor barrels so I thought I'd do the stainless factory barrel I got when I re-barreled my 223 Tikka Lite.
    ,
    Below is one of the CAD renderings I drew up just to help me visualize this project as I pictured it in my mind. It's not drawn to the exact size I had envisioned. It's just drawn to give myself and anyone who might ask what the heck I was dreaming about.

    I think that for the first ever attempt this method may be the easiest. If any kind of heat curing is required, the two short lengths of Carbon Fiber tubing will fit nicely into my small curing oven. I'll post my other two computer renderings later.

    HollowPoint
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails cfparts.jpg  

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    I don’t know how you’re going to define success for this project, just wrapping a barrel or getting some clear benefit from doing so. If the latter, I dislike your design. The placement of that center nut and the differing tension on the front and back of the barrel are new variables in a game where fewer variables seems best. Heck I don’t even like the stepped profile since it’ll hold heat differently, but if that’s what folks are doing then my concerns are probably overblown.

    Think hard about sleeving rather than wrapping. You probably have to turn a profile to match a sleeve that they already make, but that’s relatively easy. A tangential benefit is that in the shopping for a sleeve you’ll learn a lot about the barrel profiles that more experienced barrel makers have selected.

    good luck, it’s always good to push the boundaries of what we can do ourselves.

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