Carcano

[nekshot]

When I was researching the German or whoever rebarreled them to 8x57 during ww2 proofed them at 73,500 psi.

[frkelly74]

I was doing some work back in the 80's in a ladies house and saw an old Carcano rifle standing in the corner of the dining room. I had to look at it and immediately saw that the bolt was missing. So I asked about it and the answer I got was that her husband had been going through Italy with the invasion and Italian soldiers were surrendering right and left. When the rifles were handed over the bolts were taken out and disappeared somewhere and the boltless rifles were handed out to be taken home by the GIs. That was the story I was told and I have no reason to doubt it.

[Uncle Grinch]

Used to have a Nice Carcano several years ago. Sold it in search of another milsurp.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...hlight=Carcano

[asdf]

When I was researching the German or whoever rebarreled them to 8x57 during ww2 proofed them at 73,500 psi.

Those were the Krieghoff conversions from 1945. They tried to get them to work with clips, but it proved unreliable with the 8X57, so they blocked off the magazine well with a wooden plug and made them single shot. These were to be last-ditch weapons for the Volkssturm, but few were used. Since they were professionally converted by a reputable gunmaker, the conversions were quite good quality and carbines bearing the "HK" stamp (if authentic) are sought after. Not so sought after are the motley bunch of post-war quickie conversions done by various Italian factories for the Arab market. (The Arab nations used 8X57, being pro-Nazi during the war and with a ready supply of surplus ammo.) The post-war conversions are very hit-and-miss, some worse than others because they crudely ground away some of the receiver ring to make the longer rounds feed.

The high proof readings are real. FOR THEIR SIZE, they're very strong. Their trashed condition and bus-fare sticker prices years ago started people thinking that they were poorly made. Numerous tests in recent years have proven otherwise. They were made of good-quality steel, using a Czech formula. The Carcano's biggest failing is the lack of gas vents, making a case rupture potentially more lethal.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Click to enlarge.
Well, here's my 8mm conversion. I did reblue it, and refinish the stock about 20 years ago. Interestingly, it is a carbine version probably originally made before WW II, not the Moschetto with the folding bayonet. I have one or two photos in one of the WW II history books showing the Volkssturm (mostly middle aged to old guys in civilian clothing) enroute to the defense of Berlin with the Moschetto version slung across their backs. I don't know if they were in 8mm or not, as time was running short for conversions. When I bought this rifle, the importer said that it came from Israel.

However, there are many stories about these rifles, and none of them easy to pin down. It is a subject that continues to interest me, having one, and being interested in history. One story is that following the massive defeat of the Italian Army in N. Africa the Germans converted some of these rifles to 8mm to simplify ammunition supply for the units that continued to fight along side of them. Then, the same story is told about the Germans having converted these rifles for those Italians remaining loyal to fascism after the surrender of the Italian government for the fighting in Italy proper. There is also the story about them having been converted as last ditch weapons for the Volkssturm. Also, stories about them having been converted in Israel for the war that ensued immediately following their independence. Frankly, I don't know, but sure wish I did. There may be truth to any or all of these accounts. There seem to be no authoritative books on the subject--you know--those hardback, glossy covered books that cost $95.

After I overhauled the pictured rifle I shot it for several rounds with ammo I had specially loaded to approximate the .30-30 Win. I'm not lacking in courage, but take no unnecessary chances. I am happy to report that it was very accurate and pleasant to shoot. So then the search for some 8mm clips began. You would think that some must exist, but I've never found one. There are several U-Tube films (or used to be--haven't checked for several years) about how to convert the 6.5mm/7.35mm clips to use 8mm, but none seemed really satisfactory. So there it sits in my collection, useable only as a single shot. The mystery of the clips and exactly who converted these rifles is something I'll likely never really know.

[asdf]

[QUOTE=Der Gebirgsjager

.....When I bought this rifle, the importer said that it came from Israel.....

....The mystery of the clips and exactly who converted these rifles is something I'll likely never really know....[/QUOTE]

Not quite sure why you feel there's a great mystery surrounding the 8x57 conversions; it's been well researched. The Krieghoff conversion contract for Volkssturm weapons is hardly a "story". It's well-documented, even to the numbers done and markings on the rifles involved, which is why they're more desirable. The Arab-bound weapons are less documented, not because of any great secrecy, but because an unknown number of small companies were involved, post-war Italy was a chaotic place, and the Italians did not exactly have Germany's reputation for meticulous record-keeping. If your dealer was correct and you rifle did come from Israel (and we all know that salesmen's stories are meticulously researched and invariably accurate ), then it was captured from territory overrun during one of the several wars, not supplied to Israel. In fact, the Carcano's saw little front line service in Arab hands. The Egyptians used theirs strictly for training and drill; the Syrians didn't even take delivery in the end.

The "mystery of the clips" may be part of the reason. Thousands of these rifles were converted, and yet no one seems to have any 8mm Carcano clips. It is frequently suggested that, if a prestigious gun firm like Heinrich Krieghoff's couldn't make them feed 8mm reliably, why should anyone expect a collection of post-war operators in war-shattered Italy to succeed where the Germans had failed? Without reliable clips, Carcanos are just awkward single-shots, which may explain their lack of combat use. Many examples are beaten-up, but few are shot-out!

[Earlwb]

Years ago I had bought a small batch of rifles where the seller had purported them to be Afrika Corps guns. Some were 6.5, maybe some 7.35, and some in 8mm. It was years later before I figured out that the guns were likely made for the Arabs after the war. I mainly bought them for the actions at the time anyway. so it wasn't a big deal. I think that the cute little carbine in 8mm would have to kick like a mule, if you fired it with full house rounds.

[Texas by God]

I'm going to look at a "Japtalian" Carcano this week. Interesting rifles, no enbloc clips required.

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[copperlake]

When I was researching the German or whoever rebarreled them to 8x57 during ww2 proofed them at 73,500 psi.

I think a Carcano is perhaps the strongest (old) military action ever made in terms of being able to blow it up, setting aside gas, safety wing leaving etc. I couldn't do when I tried. I'm toying with turning one into a 350 Legend with no fear.