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Thread: 45 Auto Rim / 45 acp / 45 Super

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    45 Auto Rim / 45 acp / 45 Super

    Here is a fun little gun I have been enjoying. It is a barrel stubbed H&R in 45 Auto Rim / 45 acp / 45 Super.

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    No recoil, very low noise level when compared to a high powered rifle and a 120 pound doe for meat in the freezer. What more could you ask for!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I like it! Especially the versatility of being able to use the different cartridges. Sure can't complain about accuracy like that.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I have a similar one, except I opted for a longer barrel and the rifle is adapted for either .455 MkII or .45 ACP

    Built by John Taylor. Groups are with iron sights firing ordinary service grade ball ammo.

    Note that groups are all TEN shots!

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  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    Outpost75 - very nice shooting, and the gun looks great!

    I have 3 loads in the 3 different cartridges.

    45 AR - Speer 250 gr. Deep Curl

    45 acp - Hornady 250 gr. XTP

    45 Super - Hornady 230 gr. XTP

    The barrel length on this gun is 16 3/4" and 1.00" in diameter.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSASSIN View Post
    Outpost75 - very nice shooting, and the gun looks great!

    I have 3 loads in the 3 different cartridges.

    45 AR - Speer 250 gr. Deep Curl

    45 acp - Hornady 250 gr. XTP

    45 Super - Hornady 230 gr. XTP

    The barrel length on this gun is 16 3/4" and 1.00" in diameter.
    Mine is 20" long and 1" diameter, gun weighs exactly 5 pounds.

    I use the Speer 250-grain Deep Curl with a case full of #2400 for the few times when I want a heavy load, but you wouldn't want to get that one by accident into an M1911! Works fine in Ruger Blackhawk Convertible. John bushed the firing pin in the antique H&R .44 shotgun frame, and that is indeed necessary if you go above .455 pressures.

    Most of the time use the same ammo I do in my walking around revolvers. I load 4 grains of Bullseye with Acccurate 45-264D in both my New Service .455 or M1917 .45 ACP. These shoot to the sights in the old Colts and do well in the Bunny Gun using either brass. John's rimless extractor doesn't care. The M14 front sight installation is a nice touch. John also made .38 Special, .45 Colt and .44-40 barrels which fit this beast. And since these are not stubs I have the original .44-40 shot and a .410 3" chambered barrel which fit. As you might expect, it's the most used gun around the place.

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  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    This gun weighs 8 pounds 3 ounces as it sits!

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  7. #7
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    What fun and productive also
    NRA Benefactor 2004 USAF RET 1971-95

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Outpost75,

    do you get any type of expansion with the 250 gr. Speer Deep Curl, and what kind of velocity are you pushing at?

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSASSIN View Post
    Outpost75,

    do you get any type of expansion with the 250 gr. Speer Deep Curl, and what kind of velocity are you pushing at?
    Expands in water jugs at 700 fps, 4 grains of Bullseye in .455 MkII or .45 Auto Rim, 5-1/2" barrel.
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  10. #10
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    If you are getting expansion at 700 fps., then I should definitely get good expansion at 1,200 fps. from a 16 3/4" rifle barrel.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSASSIN View Post
    If you are getting expansion at 700 fps., then I should definitely get good expansion at 1,200 fps. from a 16 3/4" rifle barrel.
    Expect at that velocity bullet may come apart and penetration would be poor, but maybe not. Need to test some.
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  12. #12
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    I have a 150 pound lock of FBI ballistics jel I'll use when it warms up a little bit, and I'll post pictures of those Deep Curl bullets after expansion testing. What distance would you like to see the tests done at,

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASSASSIN View Post
    I have a 150 pound lock of FBI ballistics jel I'll use when it warms up a little bit, and I'll post pictures of those Deep Curl bullets after expansion testing. What distance would you like to see the tests done at,
    For personal defense handgun use I shoot through the chronograph into an array of water jugs set at 50 feet. With the micro-pocket pistols I reduce the distance to 25 feet to aid accurate shot placement. For rifle woods hunting use 50 yards is a practical distance for an iron-sighted hunting rifle. To simulate longer range impacts I just reduce the load to approximate the remaining velocity expected at a longer distance.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    OK. . .I'm intrigued, but have questions. . .

    What exactly is going on with the extractor that allows use of both the rimless .45ACP and the rimmed Auto Rim or Webley case? Are we dealing with case mouth headspacing, or something else?
    WWJMBD?

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  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    OK. . .I'm intrigued, but have questions. . .

    What exactly is going on with the extractor that allows use of both the rimless .45ACP and the rimmed Auto Rim or Webley case? Are we dealing with case mouth headspacing, or something else?
    GREAT Question!

    To deal with either .455 or .45 ACP chamber is first roughed with a .38-40 reamer to cut the rim seat.
    The gun will not use .45 Auto Rim because the rim is too thick. It does use Starline .455 MkII, .45 ACP or Starline 5 in 1 blank cases (for shot loads). The .456" shoulder diameter of the .38-40 chamber with 6-1/2 degree shoulder forms the "throat" for the chamber.

    John then finish reams the chamber with a .45 ACP reamer which cuts a straight body to .898" from breech face with the square stop surface to headspace .45 ACP rounds. His rimless extractor has a cam surface on it so that when the gun is opened the extractor hook drops out to clear the body circumference of the case, so that .455s or shot loads assembled in Starline 5 in 1 blank cases can go straight in and then will headspace on the rim seat of the barrel. When the action is closed the extractor hook is cammed up to engage the rimless case head of .45 ACPs, so that .45 ACP fired brass is ejected cleanly when the gun is opened in the same manner as the .455s.

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    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-22-2019 at 03:32 PM.
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  16. #16
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    John not only is a very good gunsmith but he is very creative/inventive.....wish sometimes I had not moved so far away from him......
    Larry Gibson

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  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Hmmmm. . .I'm guessing then that this extractor cam mechanism allows a little bit of floating movement to the extractor - - my guess being that if it was a hard dive into the rim cut of a .45 ACP case, it would then crush the case body (or lock up and not close) on a .455?

    Next question - is any old H&R Topper / NEF Pardner good for this surgery, or are special flavors required?

    Given that I have a Webley MKVI and. . .several 1911's, this concept tickles me somewhat.
    WWJMBD?

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  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Hmmmm. . .I'm guessing then that this extractor cam mechanism allows a little bit of floating movement to the extractor - - my guess being that if it was a hard dive into the rim cut of a .45 ACP case, it would then crush the case body (or lock up and not close) on a .455?

    Next question - is any old H&R Topper / NEF Pardner good for this surgery, or are special flavors required?

    Given that I have a Webley MKVI and. . .several 1911's, this concept tickles me somewhat.
    Mine was a pre-WW1 .44 smoothbore "garden gun". Modern ones should be fine too. Only issue on the .455 is the rim diameter, as some British and Canadian cases have rims larger than the .525" diameter of the .38-40 Winchester. The thinner rim of the Starline .455 MkII cases vs. .38-40 does not seem to be an issue, as the camming action of John's rimless extractor positively headspaces the rounds without any "slop" and ignition has been sure-fire and no punctured primers either.

    Attachment 253407

    I had John do mine for the exact same reasons that you are thinking about.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-22-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    I'd really like to meet the fellow who'd build such a rifle to shoot up a supply of Brit or Canadian surplus .455 MKII. I'd happily buy the beer for THAT conversation.

    You may recall I was a heavy pot-stirrer for getting support for a Starline run of .455 cases. I bit the weenie and stocked up last time, so dimensional issues should not arise.

    Dangit! Another expensive forum thread!
    WWJMBD?

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  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    I'd really like to meet the fellow who'd build such a rifle to shoot up a supply of Brit or Canadian surplus .455 MKII. I'd happily buy the beer for THAT conversation.

    You may recall I was a heavy pot-stirrer for getting support for a Starline run of .455 cases. I bit the weenie and stocked up last time, so dimensional issues should not arise.

    Dangit! Another expensive forum thread!
    As FYI some groups with 1942 Kynoch .455 Ammo and handload with MiHEC cast hollow-base Mk1 with 5 grains of Unique

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check